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Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

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51–56 of 56 posts

Re: Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

#51
post #48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just compare with different base - really seriously ill Russian enterprises - VAZ, KAMAZ. And in Russia things are so bad, that few years ago there literally stole jail. - One entity won tender, than few months imitate works and sure, received money, and finally declare themselves bankrupts.

LOL Russia

It is really luck for you, if you could see bad habits of other people and use this info to make yourself better.

Not too much people have such opportunity.

Re: Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

#52
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing happened to the auto manufacturers in Detroit. Used to be one of the richest cities in the world, now one of the poorest and most violent in America.

No. Detroit is the case of overestimate their success, and they just got too much debts. Usually investors are much more cautious, but in Detroit, used standard scheme of distributed responsibility, where not exists one person, who responsible for bad decision, but these decisions made by committee or by some collegial scheme. This is also known as one of the biggest problem of democracy - some subject could manipula…

You're not wrong on the problems of distributed responsibility.

But Detroit was destroyed by the looting of the American auto industry, which was offshored, outsourced, and automated in the pursuit of efficiencies by people who were well-suited, well-heeled, and not far-sighted. The automakers had been in decline by the 70's, but the manufacturing of automobiles in Detroit sustained that city, and when you remove the chief industry of a city, the results are predictable: the city declines.

Re: Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

#53
post #9

While I don't know much about the challenges of designing a computer nowadays, I find it fascinating with how much analog stuff the engineers had to cope back then, and what creative solutions they found (or didn't bother finding) for all kinds of analog signal problems. The article gives a lot of interesting insight into this.

If anything that got worse as clocks got higher, but there is more abstraction in terms of things like tooling to help you get around that. An auto-router from the 80's wouldn't stand a chance to route a modern computer motherboard, essentially every trace is a transmission line, so while nominally it is all digital you are deal with the analog parasitic components all of the time unless you have tooling that will ta…

You are right about how much harder higher clocks made things. PC mother boards got stuck at 33MHz for the longest time even though 50MHz processors were available. It took Intel coming out with the 486DX2 (50MHz inside the chip, 25MHz on the board) to get things moving again.

A key transition was moving from the 1 and 2 layer printed circuit boards of 1970s e cheap 1980s computers to 4 layers like in the IBM PC and Apple Macintosh. The difference a ground and power plane makes in the waveforms is simply amazing.

Re: Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

#54
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Detroit is the case of overestimate their success, and they just got too much debts. Usually investors are much more cautious, but in Detroit, used standard scheme of distributed responsibility, where not exists one person, who responsible for bad decision, but these decisions made by committee or by some collegial scheme. This is also known as one of the biggest problem of democracy - some subject could manipula…

You're not wrong on the problems of distributed responsibility. But Detroit was destroyed by the looting of the American auto industry, which was offshored, outsourced, and automated in the pursuit of efficiencies by people who were well-suited, well-heeled, and not far-sighted. The automakers had been in decline by the 70's, but the manufacturing of automobiles in Detroit sustained that city, and when you remove the…

Look, in business good CEO estimated as 80% of business value, or if say scientifically, value is depend much more on leadership and on quality of control, than on capital cost.

Detroit before raise of automobile industry was little periphery town, very depressive place like all periphery, so no leadership, no control (in this case, sure mean local government), simply because there where empty place, nothing to control.

In very short time appear automobile industry, which attract capital, but it is unfortunately typical, that business does not care about control, even more - in many cases business struggle against local government.

So that's all history - money tsunami appear, and flooded city; local government was not appear, it can't appear so fast, without special measures (I studying community dynamics and local governments for more than 10 years, and I have not found any facts about special programs to raise level of Detroit local government; unfortunately I seen extremely anti-local government measures); this money flood disappear, left debts.

And unfortunately that's typical history, poor cannot become reach just getting money, he should learn, change his mind.

Re: Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

#55
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only for people, who have not seen dying giants of Soviet industry, which where like large ships - when sink, pull to bottom everybody and everything near them. Other known problem - "too large to fall" - government try to save such large enterprises so hard, that lead to default.

Same thing happened to the auto manufacturers in Detroit. Used to be one of the richest cities in the world, now one of the poorest and most violent in America.

Most people who talk about the fall of detroit ofter refer to as "bean counters vs car guys" (metrics and commity vs passionate people)and once the company was entirely "bean counters" and all the "car guys" were pushed out it quickly fell.

Re: Creating the Commodore 64: The Engineers’ Story

#56
This is wild. Knowing the budget was a "license to steal".

> The cost of developing the Commodore 64: No one knows. “I had no formal budget accountability,” said Winterble, “other than Jack [Tramiel] watching me. Jack said that budgets were a license to steal.”

They also had more margin in their process which is always good. Process is so tuned today that innovations are missed because there is no room to play.

> Because MOS Technology’s fabrication facility was not running at full capacity, the equipment used for C-64 test chips and multiple passes of silicon would otherwise have been idle. “We were using people who were there anyway,” said Ziembicki. “You waste a little bit of silicon, but silicon’s pretty cheap. It’s only sand.”

Silicon back then was like bandwidth or storage today, those are cheap and can be used to innovate on but tightened later.

> Although custom chips are usually considered expensive, the C-64 chips were not. Not only were development costs absorbed in company overhead, but there was no markup to pay, as there would have been if the chips had been built by another company. And yields were high because the chips were designed for a mature semiconductor-manufacturing process.

C64 having access to in house chips was key in building what they needed and quality levels they needed.

> “It was a lot of fun,” said Ziembicki. “The design people would pick an English screw. The production end would pick metric. But they went with what they had. Commodore production was very good at making things fit whether they were intended to or not. Their charter was 'Ship ‘em’”

Good product people, designers and engineers hold back until quality levels are acceptable.

> “It takes a very tough person,” explained Charpentier, “to say ‘I’m not shipping these because they’re not as good as they could be’—especially when people are clamoring to buy them.”

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