Time to fork the FSF • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#51

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:04 AM UTC

OS X would not be possible without RMS.

You have to remember that Stallman was around before Jobs' day -- he was performing real work at MIT when Apple was initially conceptualized. Stallman therefore is apparently less vulnerable to the reality distortion field and does not unduly offer oblations to a guy who was obsessed with shininess at the expense of hacker culture. Jobs went to lengths on many products to prevent tinkering in an age when computing was still very open and very academic, because Jobs didn't want any little peons messing up his perfect devices. Hence Stallman's quip that Jobs made computers as a jail cool.

If you think about this statement from Stallman's perspective it really makes a lot of sense, and I think it is ridiculous that the Steve Jobs hero worship pervades so deeply as to not recognize that Jobs was a control freak even after Apple products were sold and in the possession of customers, and that some people, particular contemporaries of Stallman's stripe, may not have been fond of that. I doubt that the release of the iPhone really did much to persuade that set of people.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#52

Post by Produce » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:06 AM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #26

andrewljohnson wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, I'll let someone with much more eloquence than me explain to you why Stallman's diatribe is poorly wrought. If Stallman had to make a statement emphasizing his dislike of Jobs' influence, he could still have done so respectfully. Consider this; "I didn't share Steve Jobs' vision of computing, and I wish he'd chosen to embrace free software. I'm very sorry that he's gone and we've lost the opportunity to have th…

I hate to say it but that post is impossible. RMS couldnt say it. Most kids on slashdot couldn't either. For better or worse computing atracts the worst asocial and negative people around. This is why every company goes apeshit when hiring new IT. Its difficult to tell in an interview if you're dealing with some kind of aspie misanthrope. I've worked with guys like this, and they are like RMS. Dogmatic zealots with z…

And, ofcourse, this is exactly what stops most people from reaching the truth on any matter. What you just described is being a politician, it's putting form over substance. The truth has little room for niceties for it often stings. This is why most people cannot be programmers or scientists or engineers - they are too focused on the social dances and miss out on all of the glory of the rest of the universe.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#53

Post by Produce » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

spitfire wrote: post #39

In the marketplace of ideas Stallman has a simple remedy for his woes with Apple. Make better software than them. Go on Richard, I dare you to.

He already does. The only difference in the perceived quality is the learning curve. Learn the *nix way and you will be enlightened. Learn the Apple way and you will remain ignorant (but have lots of time for shopping, cos math is so boring, right?).

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#54

Post by chrisballinger » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

brendoncrawford wrote: post #19

Go ahead... fork it. Then what happens? Will you travel the world tirelessly promoting free software, speaking at universities and other events for very little money? Will you maintain a job board, mailing list, hardware database, software directory, year after year? Will you find lawyers to donate hundreds of hours to write and revise licenses? Will you hire lobbyists to fight software patents? Will you tirelessly f…

Will you grow a beard that big?

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#55

Post by marshray » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

leot wrote: post #17

BigCanOfTuna wrote: post #12

Crass and insensitive but in line with everything I've ever heard him profess to believe. He's never strayed from his goal in making great software available to millions of people around the world, and he's never given a shit why it shouldn't or couldn't be done his way...damn, that sounds familiar.

Yes, but RMS is simply wrong, here. Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. Jobs might well have (indirectly) had an even more positive influence on FOSS by spreading BSD. (I'm not saying that there isn't a ton of FOSS out there in lots of hands -- but RMS isn't responsible for its being there in the same way Jobs is responsible. Jobs is responsible for the iPhone. RMS isn't responsible for And…

Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did.

You do realize that Apple has been dependent on GCC to build its products for most of Jobs' second tenure, don't you? Some of that is code that RMS personally wrote.

The GPL license that, again, RMS personally wrote covers the kernel of the Android system. "Great software" that's in "more hands" than Jobs' devices.

Jobs was a slick businessman like Gates. RMS wrote fucking GCC.

Guess who's contribution I value more.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#56

Post by ellyagg » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #18

learc83 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't always agree with RMS, I think he truly believes everything he says. I don't think the same of Fred Phelps. I long ago reached the conclusion that he tries to say the most inflammatory thing possible wether he really believes it or not. I have no idea why, but I believe he has some other agenda than just the condemnation of homosexuality. I've even almost seriously entertained the idea that he is a clos…

Naww, he's just a zealot. The history of religion is the history of zealotry, as well as oppression and violence. Funny how you think he must be an atheist, when he fits the religious zealot profile to a 't.' Phelps fits the character of so many religious leaders who have millions of followers and millions of dollars. Phelps' big issue is that he's poor at monetizing his crazy, unlike other successful bigots like Fal…

As an atheist, I think it's pretty clear from your post that hatred and bigotry is alive and well outside of religion. You know what else is typical in religion, including Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, etc.? Tolerance, love, and generosity. If you don't know religious people who are the epitome of these qualities and find strength to exhibit them from their religion, you are living in a bubble.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#57

Post by leot » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:10 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #42

leot wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but RMS is simply wrong, here. Jobs has put great software into more hands than RMS ever did. Jobs might well have (indirectly) had an even more positive influence on FOSS by spreading BSD. (I'm not saying that there isn't a ton of FOSS out there in lots of hands -- but RMS isn't responsible for its being there in the same way Jobs is responsible. Jobs is responsible for the iPhone. RMS isn't responsible for And…

RMS makes no comment about "great software" in the post. He says that Jobs "made computers as a jail 'cool'" (paraphrase), and I think to a great extent that's true -- Apple has always been the most aggressively locked-down computer maker. Although OS X uses several open-source internals and although Apple even maintains some of these (including very important ones, like CUPS and X), they are still in some ways the m…

RMS is wrong insofar as he believes that FOSS exclusively will result in more people having better software than if there is FOSS + ~FOSS.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#58

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:12 AM UTC

leot wrote: post #57

cookiecaper wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS makes no comment about "great software" in the post. He says that Jobs "made computers as a jail 'cool'" (paraphrase), and I think to a great extent that's true -- Apple has always been the most aggressively locked-down computer maker. Although OS X uses several open-source internals and although Apple even maintains some of these (including very important ones, like CUPS and X), they are still in some ways the m…

RMS is wrong insofar as he believes that FOSS exclusively will result in more people having better software than if there is FOSS + ~FOSS.

The post in question makes no mention of FOSS exclusively resulting in better software than FOSS + non-FOSS. Are you just debating Stallman's generic platform here? Seems a bit off-topic to me...

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#59

Post by alecco » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:13 AM UTC

brendoncrawford wrote: post #19

Go ahead... fork it. Then what happens? Will you travel the world tirelessly promoting free software, speaking at universities and other events for very little money? Will you maintain a job board, mailing list, hardware database, software directory, year after year? Will you find lawyers to donate hundreds of hours to write and revise licenses? Will you hire lobbyists to fight software patents? Will you tirelessly f…

And never mind code. This basher is a complete nobody who seems to profit from open source more than contribute. It's not like the heads of several major FSF projects are banding a revolt.

The sinister anti-Stallman/GNU sentiment on HN is reaching incredibly high levels. Luckily it's mostly nobodies like this big mouth bozo.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#60

Post by ellyagg » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 4:16 AM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #36

learc83 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most zealots have a strong conviction, and will do whatever is necessary to further their cause. Sometimes what they deem necessary is shocking to the rest of us. However, Phelps "ministry" seems to exist, simply to shock. He's like the one dimensional villain who is evil for the sake of being evil. Since his public persona seems like a fictional character, I assume he is one.

>He's like the one dimensional villain who is evil for the sake of being evil. That's how I see the Pope or your typical small town preacher, yet I believe their sincerity. I'm not sure why you get to sit there and decide who is sincere and insincere without any proof. They are Christians, they follow scripture, they have opinions and audience. They're not con men, they are simply misguided and in IMHO evil because i…

Wow, I hadn't even read this comment yet. Who is the zealot again? Everyone, EVERYONE, including you, believes uncountable things purely through conditioning, purely through repeated exposure without direct confrontation of the ideas with the conscious mind. There is no evidence suggesting there are any people who believe only things for which they've carefully deliberated; in fact, there is lots of evidence that this is not the case. You believe untold woo this very moment while spewing sanctimonious claptrap.