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The Shaming-Industrial Complex

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Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#51
post #2

Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…

A lot of shame relates to things outside of one's immediate control.

"Son of a whore" is a old shame accusation. Shame by familial association is a very "traditional" part of shame. People who have suffered attack, especially rape, often feel ashamed. Failure is shameful. STDs are shameful. Being illiterate or inumerate. Etc.

Shame in these cases isn't about altering behaviours directly. It is about creating social hierarchies, structures and such. It results more in hiding.

So sure, shame has always been a part of culture and has good, along with bad effects. I don't agree that the internet "broke shame." Shame was always pretty broken. The internet just delivered it to new places.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#52
post #2

Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…

But this always happens. There is no culture which doesn't have a strong element of self-censorship for at least some of its members. But equally some groups/individuals will get the benefit of the doubt, while others will be aggressively bullied and scapegoated. And some groups/individuals will aggressively claim victimhood and martyrdom while actually being comparatively privileged. The question is more the extent…

"There is no culture which doesn't have a strong element of self-censorship for at least some of its members."

while this may be true, it does not necessarily reflect that it is right. often times throughout history shame has been used to control minority groups and people who are less privileged.

which sadly means that popular consensus may not always have the best interest in mind. oftentimes the masses overreact and get it terribly wrong if there is awareness outside of pure groupthink

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Although at least on platforms like Reddit (and I suppose the internet as a whole) it’s possible to create your own echo chamber where your opinion that was shunned elsewhere is allowed to exist and can gather a following. AKA the Toaster Fucker Problem! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25667362

Is that really a problem? Even if toaster fucker is a euphemism for gay? Why shouldn't everyone find like-minded people to feel non-isolated with?

It's not really any of those things. It's nothing more than a whimsical way to think about certain types of cultish online communities.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#54
I think "shame" is the wrong anchor point. I don't like the "industrial-complex" framing much either.

The design of twitter, FB or whatnot have something to do with this phenomenon. But, I don't think this is the main point.

I'll (heavily) paraphrase the prophetic Douglas Adams. Social media gave us back our "normal" mode of human communication: unmediated many-to-many. With it, we got back all sorts of negative social behaviours, like mob behaviours.

Dynamics where violence, hatred and such overcome moderation are... human. They have negative consequences, so we develop social machinery to deal with them. That machinery doesn't exist in brand new spheres.

Most people that came across the aids tweet didn't dunk on Justine Socco.. just all people that weighed in. That's a ratchet.

When a mob forms to beat an apple thief or promiscuous woman in the street... most people dont join the mob. Most people walk on by.

Very few are going to try and moderate the mob. Same kind of a ratchet. Spontaneous anger is a much stronger phenomenon than spontaneous moderation and restraint.

Something external needs to prevent mob violence. Maybe you need police, with an explicit mandate to break up mobs. Maybe you need a court system, so the mob might deliver the apple thief to justice instead of DIYing it. Maybe you need an explicit anti-mob belief system, so that an anti-mob mob can form to balance out the anti-thief mob.

That kind of cultural machinery is reactionary. It appears as an eventual solution to a problem. Our modern cultural frameworks (like twitter) evolve so fast that we never reach maturity though.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#55
post #37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society There is a pretty good argument that it is maladaptive in any community bigger than a few hundred people. The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation or provide effective ways to fight back against a shaming. Good political decisions c…

> The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation ?!? Legislative bodies used to rely on shame (the opposite of honor) as a means of enforcing unwritten rules. It used to be possible to shame politicians into resigning when they'd crossed a line. “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?” -- Joe Wel…

Nixon met with Congress members and was told that he would be impeached with certainty, so he resigned the next day. He was decidedly not resigning over shame.

Without the pardon from Ford, it’s possible he would be charged and indicted with a felony even. So yeah, there is a whole lot more to him resigning than shame

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#56
post #37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society There is a pretty good argument that it is maladaptive in any community bigger than a few hundred people. The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation or provide effective ways to fight back against a shaming. Good political decisions c…

> The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation ?!? Legislative bodies used to rely on shame (the opposite of honor) as a means of enforcing unwritten rules. It used to be possible to shame politicians into resigning when they'd crossed a line. “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?” -- Joe Wel…

You've just listed 100% of the presidents who's resignations could plausibly be linked to shaming tactics. It is a very, very short list compared to the number of presidents who have had shame deployed against them as a political weapon.

The two main tools the parliaments use is regular, time based election cycles combined with very formal procedures making sure everyone gets a chance to speak. In the ones I'm more familiar with (Australian, British, probably American) they also have well developed traditions against name-calling and insistence on respectful language and behaviours like using proper titles (which can be a bit off-putting seeing how politicians act outside parliament). If a politician has a solid faction backing them they can get away with some pretty extreme stuff and just shrug off the criticism. Trump is a more interesting case study, but realistically anyone in modern politics has to wade through a tide of abuse to get anything done. It is all but impossible to stop a politician getting a message out and sticking by it if there are votes to be had.

The main tools the courts use are having professional and emotionally unattached advocates who are aligned with the people they represent (aka lawyers) and extremely developed rules of evidence that strip out opinion and personal standards in an explicit quest to work out the facts and make sure any punishment is consistent with the law.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#57
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Progressives like to shame the members of their own group into ideological uniformity

This happens in pretty much every part of the spectrum.

> No original thinking needed, just unconditional support for the cause.

The mere fact there are people with dissenting opinions shows there is original thinking.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#58
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

We are now at a stage where a twitter mob would see "men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports" as a bigoted statement. To the vast majority of people there are important differences between men and women, and will now have to awkwardly self-censors their speech. Or they will worry whether they are actually bigoted and attempt to signal that they are not really a bad person by relenting to the group. We…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#59
The article kinda misses a major point:

> Flanagan calls shame accompanied by progressive values “mature shame”

I would argue that shaming used to promote your political views is often the most damaging kind of shaming because on top of being the most divisive, it is likely counterproductive, an offputting move that damages your brand and often creates a powerful backlash against it.

Now there's some subtlety here. It depends who you target in your shaming. The article does mention that shaming is considered more acceptable when punching up than punching down, which I would agree with, but you have to be very careful how you define that. Some people tell themselves they are punching up, when they are clearly punching down. One group this is clearly not privileged are the uneducated people who have always struggled at learning and understanding the world, who's grasp of morality is limited and requires weekly reminders by moral leaders, who fall for internet conspiracy theories, who have no chance of having the academic understanding of race and gender that seems to be increasingly asked of people. These people who struggle in educational settings, are comparatively handicapped, often don't have access to good stable jobs, are the first to become unemployed during recessions so are some of the most vulnerable people out there even when they are white.

Advanced morality about things like race and gender is complex and not within everyone's reach. Advanced empathy involves multilevel recursive counterfactual meta-cognitive logic ( https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K4eDzqS2rbcBDsCLZ/unrolling-... ) and sometimes, academic understanding of past history. Asking some of these people to understand these things is asking people in wheelchairs to run and run away they will. If you shame them for their handicap they will fight back.

It's fine to shame the villainous leaders who manipulated these people for their evil ends, but if you shame the people for falling into the traps, you actually push them further towards those evils.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#60
post #46
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

> diversity of thought No one is stopped from having diverse thoughts - you can always think whatever you want. But why do you think you have the right to publicly & globally tweet it without anyone responding to it? Are you looking solely for supportive replies? And zero debate or criticism? The irony is that all the people fighting “cancel culture” with their “diverse” thoughts really seem to mainly just have hot-t…

> And zero debate or criticism?

Criticism and responses would be fine. Bloodthirsty attempts at ruining the persons life/career aren't, yet they're extremely common. As others have said, it adds way too much risk to non-anonymous public discourse, where if it happens that something you said, no matter how innocuous, snowballs for whatever reason, you're screwed. So the only reasonable thing to do is just not express opinions online.

I don't even think it's a matter of people really trying to punish intolerant people, it's that mobs are fun to be in, so randoms do just hop in for fun and a rush of moral superiority. You could "cancel" literally anyone over anything if you got enough traction to start going "viral."

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