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Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

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Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#51

Post by ajross »

Poiesis wrote: post #48
enry_straker wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have put into words my thoughts exactly. To be sure, i am a bit of a woz fanboy, having lived through the 80's and poring over his work. Though i don't begrudge Jobs the fame and fortune, i do think a lot of people overlook woz. To me, he is probably the single most influential pioneer in the history of personal computing.

It is illuminating to compare Apple's priorities then and now. You can easily see the common obsession with design and the drive to make it affordable. Despite Apple's early reputation, it's clear that they were still trying to keep the cost down so the experience could be shared by more people. Jobs was different, though, in that he would aggressively cut costs and just as aggressively not compromise on the user exp…

Apple never meaningfully cut costs on the Apple II. It was a success in 1976 for reasons of cost, because it had features other machines didn't at a part count (i.e. production cost) much lower than its competitors. But the retail price was always higher than competing machines, always. This got a little silly towards the mid 80's, when a IIe would run you more than $1k while the C64 next to it was $200.

I continue to find it amazing the degree to which the reality distortion field still holds.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#52

Post by bane »

rimantas wrote: post #27
rimantas wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would Steve have said about the software? Why are OS X and iOS APIs riddled with NS prefix? Who founded NEXTStep? Was Woz there? Was Woz at Pixar? Not to diminish the input of the man, but: Steve without Woz would still be known for something. Woz without Steve? Would probably hack happily at HP.

Apparently I got facts wrong. I just wonder which ones…

We're talking about the Apple I/II, not things that happened decades later.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#53

Post by EREFUNDO »

Steve Wozniak was the real tech wizard, but Steve Jobs was the visionary. Job's ability to empathize with users is beyond belief. He knew what people wanted before they even knew what they wanted. Bill Gates also had a strikingly similar vision. He famously said that "We have to figure out what a person needs that he doesn't know he needs. Then we make him realize that he does need it and we're the only ones who could give him the answer." Maybe he was copying Steve Jobs, wouldn't be the first time.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#54

Post by pajju »

marquis wrote: post #23
enry_straker wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have put into words my thoughts exactly. To be sure, i am a bit of a woz fanboy, having lived through the 80's and poring over his work. Though i don't begrudge Jobs the fame and fortune, i do think a lot of people overlook woz. To me, he is probably the single most influential pioneer in the history of personal computing.

Yes, Woz is my hero also but we have to consider - without Steve would we have seen Woz's brilliance? Great partnerships are difficult to untangle as to who influenced who, the greater.

Complementary personalities. Period.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#55

Post by javert »

yters wrote: post #49
javert wrote: post #39

How does Woz saying that Steve Jobs was incredibly kind, sync up with the statment on Jobs' Wikipedia page that Jobs stole thousands of dollars from Woz when they were both at Atari [1]? Is there something more to this story? [1] search for $700 on Jobs' wikipedia page

I've read him say that he didn't think it was a big deal. Woz seems a pretty forgiving guy. Me, I'd be pissed b/c people like Jobs always seems to think engineers are just sitting around waiting to get punked. I hate that someone has to be like Jobs to do so well. But, I also recognize he was successful and had a great vision, I won't begrudge him that. Why can't goodness and success go together more often, without g…

You don't have to be dishonest to do well.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#56

Post by rbanffy »

keenerd wrote: post #47
rbanffy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Woz did all that stuff. While I agree the II is not a Jobs-only product, I can't imagine Jobs sitting quietly letting Woz make all the decisions. I can't picture Jobs sitting quietly at all.

Woz put up a serious fight to make the Apple II as powerful as possible. Jobs wanted it to be as cheap as possible. Jobs planned to sell two expansion cards, so the Apple II only only needed two expansion slots. Woz refused to hobble the machine when he could easily make it have seven expansion slots. The Apple II had seven, and within a year there was a flourishing third party market providing all sorts of expansion…

> Woz put up a serious fight to make the Apple II as powerful as possible.

A fight for user experience. Woz is the ultimate hacker advocate and he understood the II was a hacker's computer. Jobs was the ultimate common-person advocate. The Mac was the ultimate common-person computer.

And yes, the Jobs/Wozniak equilibrium is my favorite period for Apple. The II is still my favorite computer.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#57

Post by rbanffy »

option1138 wrote: post #50
rbanffy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Apple II simply had no "user experience" in the sense we understand today Of course there is an user experience element on an Apple II. You just have to put the II in the context of the microcomputers if its time. It came in a plastic box, you could hook up your TV and you could display color and make music and sound effects in the speaker. You turned it on and you got a BASIC language interpreter instantly. Yo…

I have to disagree. I used the Apple IIe and the TRS-80 extensively during this period. I coded games and other software in BASIC and assembly on both machines. I poured over the schematics of both machines for hours at a time. You could literally say that I knew those machines inside and out. What you refer to as "user experience" was not at all uncommon. The TRS-80, the Sinclair, and many other computers shipped in…

The TRS-80 didn't have color and, unless you went into 32x16 mode, text would be unreadable on a TV (it had a matching TTL monochrome monitor built with a TV-grade CRT). 40x24 text was readable on the Apple II even through an RF modulator. While it didn't come with an RF modulator built-in, you could buy one cheaply.

In 77, there were more or less two computers that didn't look too much like office equipment: the II and the TRS-80 model 1. You mention the IIe and the Sinclair. The ZX-80 wasn't launched until 3 years after the original II. The IIe was introduced in 1983 (that is, after the III). The TRS-80 you remember is, most likely, the model III.

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#58

Post by option1138 »

rbanffy wrote: post #57
option1138 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree. I used the Apple IIe and the TRS-80 extensively during this period. I coded games and other software in BASIC and assembly on both machines. I poured over the schematics of both machines for hours at a time. You could literally say that I knew those machines inside and out. What you refer to as "user experience" was not at all uncommon. The TRS-80, the Sinclair, and many other computers shipped in…

The TRS-80 didn't have color and, unless you went into 32x16 mode, text would be unreadable on a TV (it had a matching TTL monochrome monitor built with a TV-grade CRT). 40x24 text was readable on the Apple II even through an RF modulator. While it didn't come with an RF modulator built-in, you could buy one cheaply. In 77, there were more or less two computers that didn't look too much like office equipment: the II…

True, I thought I mentioned the color thing, but I guess not. You definitely could not read a TRS-80 clearly on a TV. You could on an Apple, but who would? Most people - remember the buyers were predominantly hobbyists and schools - bought the monitors.

I was working on a TRS-80 Model I in the late 70s, I want to say 1977 but maybe it was '78. I remember it vividly, even down to the massive 4kb memory expansion (which weighed around 10lbs and threw off massive amounts of heat).

Later on we got a Model III. It didn't have nearly as much character as the I. I didn't like the monolithic looks of it much but it was admittedly a much cleaner machine with the built-in disk drives (the Model I eventually supported 5 1/4" floppies but they were humongous standalone units.)

What fun!

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#59

Post by rbanffy »

option1138 wrote: post #58
rbanffy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TRS-80 didn't have color and, unless you went into 32x16 mode, text would be unreadable on a TV (it had a matching TTL monochrome monitor built with a TV-grade CRT). 40x24 text was readable on the Apple II even through an RF modulator. While it didn't come with an RF modulator built-in, you could buy one cheaply. In 77, there were more or less two computers that didn't look too much like office equipment: the II…

True, I thought I mentioned the color thing, but I guess not. You definitely could not read a TRS-80 clearly on a TV. You could on an Apple, but who would? Most people - remember the buyers were predominantly hobbyists and schools - bought the monitors. I was working on a TRS-80 Model I in the late 70s, I want to say 1977 but maybe it was '78. I remember it vividly, even down to the massive 4kb memory expansion (whic…

> What fun!

Indeed. I really miss those days...

Re: Wozniak remembers Steve Jobs

#60

Post by lurker19 »

javert wrote: post #39

How does Woz saying that Steve Jobs was incredibly kind, sync up with the statment on Jobs' Wikipedia page that Jobs stole thousands of dollars from Woz when they were both at Atari [1]? Is there something more to this story? [1] search for $700 on Jobs' wikipedia page

Because Wozniak is a kindhearted man and because Jobs did eventually pay it back with 10000% interest.

Wozniak would never have become a millionaire without a salesman like Jobs.

The greatest hacker will never overcome economics.

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