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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#51

Post by gxt »

obilgic wrote: post #30
stuaxo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.

so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

Put the cap on assets. They should be able to make all the money in the world as long as they spend it too.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#52

Post by obilgic »

this_was_posted wrote: post #44
obilgic wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m

No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.

> No one is forcing them to retire

> shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact

who says they will shift?

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#53

Post by lvl102 »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

I am sorry but the world has always been this way. Countries with actual power used to take away far more than what is being done right now. The US (and the West) has been trying to do what is right which is doing it without devastations of wars. People forget the US military is good enough to wipe out 1/2 of the world within weeks. Would you rather have that? Or some bank accounts getting frozen? Your take is extremely naive.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#54

Post by newsclues »

barney54 wrote: post #27
vowelless wrote: post #9

Should the world seize the assets of Silicon Valley billionaires over the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and other actions in MENA? Probably.

Why? Because they are American? The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.

Last couple of years big tech in America became quasi state actors, we are seeing it now on social media but the last election was a glaring example.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#55

Post by DaltonCoffee »

The simple fact that the term oligarch has come to be assumed to be preceded by the term Russian, as in the title, speaks volumes.

Honest question: Are Russian oligarchs more tied to the Russian gov't than in the USA, like how the RBN is more tied to gov't than American counterparts such as Pegasus/etc.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#56

Post by dotancohen »

kleene_op wrote: post #49
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? > And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. You're absolutely right in both regards but please do not conflate those two. I'll weep zero tears over Putin's rich friends not being able to play with their yacht anymore, but common Russians having to leave their home…

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#57

Post by krapp »

dotancohen wrote: post #38
scrollaway wrote: post #19

A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, i…

You are wrong. If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.

So what you're saying is that the West should allow Russia to do whatever it likes from now on because the US invaded Iraq, and to do otherwise would be hypocritical.

Ok. If that's the case, then Russia's actions justify any action the West ever takes in the future. There are no rules, all bets are off, and all war crimes are justified henceforth. Including the use of nuclear weapons, which was normalized in 1945, and the use of biological and chemical weapons as normalized in World War 1.

You wont' complain if any nation - the US, Israel, anyone - invades a sovereign nation and slaughters civilians because that's been normalized and is now justified, correct? And nothing - absolutely nothing - is more important than not being a hypocrite, correct?

Actually, now that I think about it, since the US wasn't even the first country to invade Iraq or Afghanistan to begin with, their actions were already justified. It's not as if the US created imperialism or war, so what are people even trying to accomplish pointing out America's flaws? It's been normalized for thousands of years, what's the problem?

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#58

Post by 88840-8855 »

refurb wrote: post #32
88840-8855 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect? The Russians are a pretty comfy enemy. From Call of Duty over Mission Impossible, we are familiar to the evil Russian, hence, those reactions are so satisfying to too many people, unfortunately. I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school. This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeare…

Pretty much. San Francisco fired the SF Symphony Director because... he's from Russia . Amazing how quickly our base, tribal instincts kick in when an "enemy" appears. All pretense to "peace" and "restraint" and "avoid foreign wars" goes out the window really damn quick . If you're the kind of person who looks back and thinks "man, how could America be so stupid to get involved in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq"? Wel…

It works especially well when the enemy is somewhat predefined by the media and the general tropes and narratives in movies, games, books. The Chinese are evil, so are the Russians. Everyone knows that. Or Middle Eastern guys. They could be terrorists. All evil, we are good. Did you ever think that a Dutch or an Italian girl could be bad?

I told my child to say that she has Ukranian roots (which she has, my grandmother is from Ukraine) and deny her Russian roots after she was bullied last week in school. I tried to explain to her the situation and the motivation of those bullies.

I also deny my Russian roots in the volunteer group I support in my city here in Germany. They need Ukrainian/Russian speaking people to help to translate. When I first joined the coordination zoom chat of one group and it was my turn to introduce myself and mentioned my Russian roots (to explain why I speak Russian), I got banned. I later joined another group and there only mentioned my Ukrainian heritage. Now every day I help as a translator for the people who come to my city and I am very happy to do that.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#59

Post by avh02 »

Tenoke wrote: post #34
raverbashing wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.

>Yes, it's a war. Deal with it The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.

And one of the ways they're trying to keep from joining and turning it in to ww3 is confiscating the opponent's rich people's toys.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#60

Post by scrollaway »

dotancohen wrote: post #38
scrollaway wrote: post #19

A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, i…

You are wrong. If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.

What the hell are you talking about? Your post is extremely difficult to even parse.

Let's be clear, there are war crimes happening daily in Ukraine and there is NOTHING normalized around this. The US having done it before doesn't make it fucking normal, but it also doesn't mean the top priority now is to talk about US war crimes.

1,582 civilians killed by Russian shelling and blockade in Mariupol (Reuters): https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraines-mariupol-says-1582-ci...

Lavrov confirmed that Russia deliberately bombed a maternity hospital in Mariupol (Article with more details from the Independent): https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/russia-maternity-hospti...

These are just two random recent examples I pulled from a long list of updates. Let me know if you want more, there's a buffet of choice.

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