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Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

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Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#51

This problem isn't a teaching problem. Evaluating someone's skills in any respect or context is basically an intractable problem. Interviewing, school, job performance, etc. etc. If there were an organization that could "perfectly" evaluate people's skills in a fixed period of time it would quickly become the top, and eventually only company. It would use its own skills in order to remove low performers, perfectly fr…

The first thing to understand is that the goal in teaching is not to evaluate anyone's skills . The goal in teaching is to make sure that students learn things. From a teacher's perspective, the evaluation part is entirely a hack to make sure that they do.

I disagree - without evaluation how do they “make sure that students learn things”?

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#52
I'm currently on a goal and motivation research reading interest, so I think I can add value to this.

School pedagogical approaches are weird and appears broadly to be testing a student's ability to endure forcing themselves to learn material they may not find interesting. Obviously, this divides the student population and people with better executive functioning, or stricter parents, float to the top. It's what we've done for so long, we're anchored around the concept. From a motivational standpoint, for many students this can kill curiosity and desire for learning.

Goal attainment research consensus clearly demonstrates specific and sufficiently difficult tasks lead to better performance. It's even more ideal when the individual sets the goal or at the very least is involved in developing the organizational goal. This goes against the grain in schools. Sometimes teachers are incredibly vague, others specific. And, unless the student is in a highly individualized learning environment, like working on a capstone project, they do not play a role in course goal setting.

You start to see the potential problems when research demonstrates, the highest individual performance occurs when individuals are provided a specific and sufficiently difficult goal with a learning oriented approach and decreased emphasis on performance (tests and grades). On the other hand, when an individual already possesses skills and knowledge for assigned goals, then a performance approach, not a learning approach, yields an overall higher performance rating. Also, by far, the worst goal orientation, among the aforementioned, is performance avoidance, that is performing to avoid negative consequences.

Students are in school, they're in the process of obtaining skills and knowledge for a career they may not even have solidified yet. Students are largely falling into the performance avoidance category, then the performance approach category, and, finally, for the luckier few, the learning approach category. Add in the teacher quality variable, whether they assign specific or vague and easy or sufficiently difficult assignments, and you start to see how this creates problems for students and for society.

I speak from experience. I failed miserably during school, even dropping out of high school, for a variety of reasons outside of my control and am extremely fortunate to be where I am today.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#53
> But some are an assault on reason, with every word of the assignment creatively misinterpreted. It was never stated which temperature circuit to build or how to prove it works or what level of explanation was necessary. And who’s to say what “build” means?

OK? So your students tried to do something and failed creatively. Sounds good. Reward them for their efforts, ask them to try again if you feel that they still need to get something out of the assignment.

> But some don’t, and they keep complaining and asking for regrades, and if those aren’t accepted they (or their parents) contact the principal/chair/dean/ombudsperson, who are required to have an investigation.

OK.

> hat gets misinterpreted too, so more details are added, and by the time the teacher retires you have a monstrosity that’s universally despised but almost impossible to complain about.

So your bad solution is good because it started off bad and ended worse. OK.

> Well, enjoy re-grading every single assignment from every student near a boundary,

Round up by default? If someone has an 89, just give them the 90. Honestly, who cares if a few students come up to you and want regrades, I imagine it takes all of 30 seconds to cross out the old grade and add the new one. How onerous...

> As far as I can tell, most follow the incentives and make little effort to stop cheating.

Cool. Most of the time cheating entails something like access to notes on a test that is artificially made more difficult by requiring memorization. That's why open note tests are far better.

> But some teachers are principled

Bummer. They don't sound principled so much as they sound unimaginative.

> Say you suspect students are copying from each other on an exam. You can silently prepare multiple versions of the exam with “micro differences” in questions.

Sounds dumb, I don't like the idea of trying to "trap" kids. I cheated exactly once on a test and got away with it - why? Because I was unhappy in school and I went home and spent my time distracting myself rather than preparing for it. Me cheating one time had literally no negative impact on my life, you trapping me and once again teaching me that education goes hand in hand with punishment would have done years of damage.

> They realized that they could skip learning the material, and instead complete the project by running an evolutionary algorithm with my father’s grading as a reward function.

Creative. Without knowing more about the assignment it's hard to judge, but I'm wary of any assignment that you can just brute force like that.

> your students will be lazy and fallible.

I had to undo years of being told I was "smart but lazy". Teachers need to erase that word from their vocabulary.

> So they won’t learn anything. That's OK, most people don't learn much from school.

> And then they will blame you for not forcing them to do the homework.

a) OK

b) I mean, maybe the parents would? I frankly don't believe that any student will blame a teacher for not forcing them to do homework.

> Surely what matters is if a student understands things, not if they ask questions in class?

Good question. What exactly is the point? To me, education serves a few functions.

1. Babysitting kids so that parents can work

2. Providing young people with a safe place for them to explore their emerging identities, interests, and view of the world

3. Stoking an interest in learning and providing the tools and resources to build a baseline knowledge for future education

So, is understanding really the goal? I don't see understanding as being particularly critical to the education system.

> Participation credit helps to internalize positive externalities.

100% agreed.

My transcript is an odd mix of grades - even within a single class, within a single semester I could go from an A or B to a D or F, or coast by on a C. What I value most is that during that time I dated, made lifelong friends, read books on physics and philosophy, discovered New York City while I skipped classes, played video games, learned to bike, etc. All of the stuff you're talking about, it's the stuff that got in the way of everything that has produced value in my life.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I think school is pretty stupid, as is, but I find that I pretty much exclusively disagree with teachers about why. I sometimes read /r/teachers and the self indulgent pity party, and the "I wanted to be good but I just hate kids now!" theme, is sickening.

I also find it sad that so many people become what they hate. I think people seem to have an incredibly hard time empathizing with their former selves, which I find so weird. But I've had adults trivialize teenagers' problems, as if just because now they have "adult problems" that somehow means that when they were a kid they were just dramatic.

Maybe try to regain some insight into why your younger self would be disappointed, and what they might suggest.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#54
post #3

The whole thrust behind this article is that grading and testing is a bunch of crap. And that's entirely correct, IMHO. We should restructure our whole Western (and Eastern, for all I know) education system on the lines of Ivan Illich's book Deschooling Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschooling_Society which (simplified) suggests that everyone gets an educational grant that they can spend about which and who…

That is not at all what I got out of the article. The main thrust is that policies that are apparently dumb to non-teachers are not actually dumb. They are well-justified responses to the ways students will attempt to defeat the purpose of the system.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#55
post #16

For the most part I actually had wonderful teachers during my school career. What I bitterly disagreed with was a lot of the curriculum, and I knew they didn’t have a say in that. So my question to educators here would be: Do you ever feel like you’re forced to teach topics you know won’t benefit students?

> Do you ever feel like you’re forced to teach topics you know won’t benefit students? Normally, professors teach things they have some expertise in, and they're biased to think that this is useful to students. Besides, it's often very debatable whether something is useful or not. For instance, I used to teach things such as theory of computation, automata theory, and similar so-called theoretical classes. You could…

Ha! As a pure mathematician-turned-software engineer, Theory of Computation was one of the few classes I took that remains even remotely applicable. At the time I thought it was really cool, and probably made CS a little more appealing.

Conversely, in my current role as a backend/systems/researchy person, a JS class would broaden my horizons a bit like a literature class might, but I think both would be equally useful to my current job.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#56
My college classes gave a 5% weight to homework, 45% to the midterm and 50% to the final. Since I was a good test taker I could skip almost all the homework and still get an A or an A- if I didn’t do as well on one of the exams. It also didn’t help that the professors gave extremely hard exams to small classes: I distinctly remember getting a B+ on an exam where I got 1 out of 6 questions right because everyone else got half a question right. I still don’t really know quantum mechanics basics but my grades say otherwise.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#57

I've often thought the same thing about becoming an adult, especially a parent, in general. There are so many choices that I harshly judged older people for making (how to allocate their time and money, where to live, what to allow or not allow the kids to do, how to behave at work, etc.) that I now find myself making as a married guy in my mid-30s with four kids. It makes me sad, but on each point I'm like, "Oh, now…

Yep. Your point of view as a parent is often very different than as a teen/20-ager. Different priorities. You’re suddenly aware of all of the things in society influencing your kids. You’re very aware when things your read online don’t match up with reality and especially with math.

It’s just life experience. I don’t know many parents who look back at their younger years thinking, “I had it all figured out back then.”

And the longer you watch it the more aware you become of the people trying to influence kids for different reasons specifically because those kids don’t look at it and call BS immediately.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#58

This problem isn't a teaching problem. Evaluating someone's skills in any respect or context is basically an intractable problem. Interviewing, school, job performance, etc. etc. If there were an organization that could "perfectly" evaluate people's skills in a fixed period of time it would quickly become the top, and eventually only company. It would use its own skills in order to remove low performers, perfectly fr…

> This problem isn't a teaching problem. Evaluating someone's skills in any respect or context is basically an intractable problem. You're not engaging with author's argument. The author explicitly assumes for the sake of argument that perfect evaluation is possible. He's saying that even under this unrealistic assumption, teacher policies that naively look draconian are in fact hard to avoid given reasonable teacher…

That wasn’t my read. Ultimately the issues described are political. The author says as much when describing the “structural forces” and that systems with humans behave is funny ways.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#59

I've often thought the same thing about becoming an adult, especially a parent, in general. There are so many choices that I harshly judged older people for making (how to allocate their time and money, where to live, what to allow or not allow the kids to do, how to behave at work, etc.) that I now find myself making as a married guy in my mid-30s with four kids. It makes me sad, but on each point I'm like, "Oh, now…

I frequently say that 16 y/o Chris would be very disappointed in 40 y/o Chris. But 16 y/o Chris was an idiot. As you touched on, the fun twist is when you abstract the learning so it’s not just “I was wrong about X” but “I should be much more accepting of contrarian views.”

Don’t judge your former self too harshly either. It’s easy to forget why you were an idiot at 16.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#60

Grading is not dissimilar to setting up arbitrary metrics on a business or an engineering team. People will find ways to optimise for the metric. If you give bonuses based on number of commits created or number of tickets closed you'll end up with a lot of useless commits and tickets. If the only thing that matters in order to pass a course is to do an exam, people will optimise for that. If someone doesn't like the…

> There would be no grades or titles when you get a job, just an increasingly longer list of projects you worked on.

And you'll obtain the good obeying sheeps. You would miss all the competent rebels, those who think outside the scope.

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