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No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

nohello.net

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Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#51

Post by unfocussed_mike »

chc wrote: post #49
unfocussed_mike wrote: post #16

I know I am going to be downvoted so hard for this, but this is the most Hacker News thing ever. People have all sorts of different ways to converse; people have different models of politeness, people are shy, uncertain or awkward in all sorts of different ways. Some things just can't be blurted out. Some things need the scene setting. People are people. Not robots. Producing a website to demand that people address y…

Setting boundaries that ask people to respect your time is not "staggeringly entitled," it's pretty much the bare minimum of self-respect.

I appreciate that this is a fine hair to split, but I didn't actually say that setting boundaries is entitled.

It's the website, and the sort of arms-length sharing of it, that is staggeringly entitled. Worse still, putting it in status messages or biogs.

People will see this thing and think: OK, but when I do communicate precisely the way they want, they are sometimes still abrupt and terse and difficult. Why am I jumping through hoops?

The thing is, the way people are, they might have tolerated that a little more, or maybe not even noticed it much, if it hadn't been pre-emptively shoved in their faces with a literal manifesto website.

Setting boundaries is difficult. But it's what line management is for.

It's also more easily done mid-communication, which I think is often missed here. It's easier to say, "yeah, I can do this, but for next time, could you summarise the problem in your initial message? It helps me deal with your inquiry."

And then remember that everyone is different. If they say "OK, that can be a little difficult for me because...", their reason might be good and it might build a bridge if you try to remember it.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#52

Post by unfocussed_mike »

lamontcg wrote: post #50

There's also vaguebugging that usually goes along with this, and which gets used in public channels: "Hey team, is anyone seeing a problem with ?" (well, I have a bugtracker with around 300-400 issues in it, so yes... what is your specific problem?) That is counter productive because I get this mental image of you with a fishing rod with bait on the hook waiting for me to bite, and my natural reaction is to not bothe…

This, for what it's worth, is much more annoying to me than a bit of conversational flow.

"Vaguebugging" is such a useful word that it is now noted for future use.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#53

Post by satisfice »

This is a stupid post. By stupid I mean it seems to me that the author of it is deliberately refusing to use his mind.

The purpose of saying “hi” is to check for presence in order to initiate a live conversation. It sends a message that the person wishes to speak live whenever that is convenient.

I’m sorry if the poster doesn’t understand the value of live conversation, but that’s not our problem.

Now people like me have to say “ignore that post from that idiot… go ahead and ping me with a ‘hi’”

Deliver me from clever control freaks who never studied human behavior.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#55

Post by greyhair »

ghaff wrote: post #10
ghusto wrote: post #6

Meh, it's an age thing too. I'm older and daresay I find it _incredibly_ more annoying when people type out a single message over many individual messages (line, enter send, line, enter send, ... etc.) When it's particularly bad, I actually hit the DND button on my Mac and go about other business until I think they've finished. Bear in mind you're effectively tapping me on the shoulder to stop what I'm doing with eve…

Circumstances differ of course but it helps to have as few notifications turned on as possible. I don't know how some people manage when their phone or computer is pinging them for just about every random event.

precisely My phone lives on DND. Only priority numbers get through on text.

I check it every two hours, on odd numbered hours.

If you text me expecting a response, and you aren't in my priority pool, I'll get back to you. After all, it is my phone, not yours.

My work slack is only available during my work day. Out of hours, it is closed.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#56

Post by librarianscott »

ghusto wrote: post #6

Meh, it's an age thing too. I'm older and daresay I find it _incredibly_ more annoying when people type out a single message over many individual messages (line, enter send, line, enter send, ... etc.) When it's particularly bad, I actually hit the DND button on my Mac and go about other business until I think they've finished. Bear in mind you're effectively tapping me on the shoulder to stop what I'm doing with eve…

It's about etiquette, not about your time. Remember what Emily Post says about hello[1], "On very informal occasions, it is the present fashion to greet an intimate friend with “Hello!” This seemingly vulgar salutation is made acceptable by the tone in which it is said. To shout “Hullow!” is vulgar, but “Hello, Mary” or “How ’do John,” each spoken in an ordinary tone of voice, sound much the same. But remember that the “Hello” is spoken, not called out, and never used except between intimate friends who call each other by the first name."

Saying "hello" is not some devious plan to interrupt you, but rather a thing that humans do rather than act like a bot.

[1]: https://www.bartleby.com/95/3.html

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#57

Post by ximile »

ghusto wrote: post #6

Meh, it's an age thing too. I'm older and daresay I find it _incredibly_ more annoying when people type out a single message over many individual messages (line, enter send, line, enter send, ... etc.) When it's particularly bad, I actually hit the DND button on my Mac and go about other business until I think they've finished. Bear in mind you're effectively tapping me on the shoulder to stop what I'm doing with eve…

I don't blame the sender for the annoyingness of this as much as the notifications. No chat platform I've ever used automatically mutes the notifications for a few minutes when the rate hits >5 notifications in a minute.

Maybe I've missed the feature hidden somewhere? I'd really appreciate it for group chats in particular. I need to know there's a discussion, I don't need my phone to notify me for every single message.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#58

Post by Pooge »

satisfice wrote: post #53

This is a stupid post. By stupid I mean it seems to me that the author of it is deliberately refusing to use his mind. The purpose of saying “hi” is to check for presence in order to initiate a live conversation. It sends a message that the person wishes to speak live whenever that is convenient. I’m sorry if the poster doesn’t understand the value of live conversation, but that’s not our problem. Now people like me…

> The purpose of saying “hi” is to check for presence in order to initiate a live conversation. It sends a message that the person wishes to speak live whenever that is convenient.

No, it does not. If the person wants to do a call, you either call directly or - more polite these days - you send a message along the lines of "Can I call you about ?" or "Please call me whenever you're ready to talk about ". If you want to engage in synchronous (i.e. live) conversation, you don't engage it by just sending "hi" over a text chat, which is a very asynchronous medium.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#59

Post by trvrprkr »

satisfice wrote: post #53

This is a stupid post. By stupid I mean it seems to me that the author of it is deliberately refusing to use his mind. The purpose of saying “hi” is to check for presence in order to initiate a live conversation. It sends a message that the person wishes to speak live whenever that is convenient. I’m sorry if the poster doesn’t understand the value of live conversation, but that’s not our problem. Now people like me…

A huge benefit of many (most?) chat apps is that communication can be async. If it requires a live conversation, then respectfully it probably warrants scheduling time.

The author is arguing that the “udp approach” to these conversations is less intrusive, and also alleviates doubt/anxiety about the nature of the conversation.

Re: No hello – please don't just say hello in chat

#60

Post by gregmac »

unfocussed_mike wrote: post #16

I know I am going to be downvoted so hard for this, but this is the most Hacker News thing ever. People have all sorts of different ways to converse; people have different models of politeness, people are shy, uncertain or awkward in all sorts of different ways. Some things just can't be blurted out. Some things need the scene setting. People are people. Not robots. Producing a website to demand that people address y…

I agree with what you're saying as far as framing it around "don't say hello": it's really saying "don't just say hello and wait", but that's not as catchy.

If you ignore the literal "no hello" part and focus on the bigger point, it is really about teaching people chat etiquette. I think the "hello" message happens when people think of chat as just a text-based equivalent to a voice call. The trouble is chat is something new: email and forums are fully asynchronous, voice and face-to-face are fully synchronous, but chat is a kind of hybrid. Just as sync vs async demand different styles and etiquette, so does chat.

"Hello, hope today is going well and the family is all good. I was wondering if you can help me with figuring out the data on a report?" is fine, if you really need to include the small talk, but it's perfectly polite to say "hey, do you have some time to help me debug a report?"

In either case you're being clear about what you need and the recipient has some idea what they're getting into.

You know what's awful? A conversation like this, spread over several minutes:

"Hello"

"Hi.."

"How are you today? How is the family?"

"Uh, good. What's up?"

"I am trying to get together a report but the data makes no sense to me, and I don't know what's wrong."

"Oh. Sorry I'm about to join a meeting and have a few more this morning so I won't be available for a few hours"

This is what "no hello" seeks to avoid.

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