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NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

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Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#51
post #2

Make sure you read the "beware of clones" section carefully. There are some real shysters out there. Even the official UK reseller of the "lesser" sub 1GHz NanoVNA has been caught shipping cloned crap that doesn't even pass self test or work properly on multiple occasions. On to more optimistic things: these are really good. My neighbour is fairly deaf and has her television obnoxiously loud watching snooker until go…

Do you realize you just admitted to a crime?

as a crime it may a be a small one. As a totally lacking empathy a*hole who denied a hearing impacted grandma her favorite show he is definitely a big one though.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to sample at the Nyquist rate (i.e. 2x the intended measured frequency) to detect the presence of a particular signal but instead can just measure the overall power within a narrow frequency band of interest. Practically speaking this is done by mixing the sweep frequency down to at or around DC and then either directly measuring the power or sampling at a much lower rate and computing the power digita…

I don't think this is true, otherwise I could see the power on wifi bands with my 2.4ghz rtl-sdr device, instead of only up to 1200mhz.

Who you're responding to is correct.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I buy one real device and clone the serial number? This has been solved more than a decade ago but it requires hardware with secure storage to maintain a private key. Some centralized service holds the public key and can verify the device by asking it to sign something with the private key. This is basically every cell phone, quality IoT device, etc. The private key is installed in the factory, maybe provided…

Did you read the datasheet or are you responding to your imagination? Anyway, there's a litany of similar devices to fill whatever requirements you wish. SIM cards, for instance, are available in WSON8 MFF2 chips that you can directly solder to a board.

Why are you so rude? I am a hardware engineer and I’m explaining how you establish trust with hardware devices. This information isn’t contained in a single data sheet, it spans an entire global supply chain.

A SIM card is just one way to do exactly what I described. It’s expensive and probable not a good choice for small, cheap devices. Not to mention brings along a whole host of associated security complexity.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#55
post #40
post #27

In ELI5 terms: What is a VNA? What are some exemplary, common things I could do with it?

While mastax's explanation is correct, it's not really "like you're 5." These low end VNAs have two connectors. A signal comes out of connector 1 and goes to connector 2. What happens to that signal is measured, including the change in amplitude (up or down) and phase shift (left or right.) Also, whatever signal bounces back to connector 1 is measured for amplitude and phase. With that you can tune antennas, characte…

>That's about as simple as it can be explained without resorting to baby talk.

Can't say I'm not interested in what that would sound like.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#56
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While mastax's explanation is correct, it's not really "like you're 5." These low end VNAs have two connectors. A signal comes out of connector 1 and goes to connector 2. What happens to that signal is measured, including the change in amplitude (up or down) and phase shift (left or right.) Also, whatever signal bounces back to connector 1 is measured for amplitude and phase. With that you can tune antennas, characte…

>That's about as simple as it can be explained without resorting to baby talk. Can't say I'm not interested in what that would sound like.

who's a good wittle antenna? Dats wight! You are! You a good wittle antenna!

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#57
post #2

Make sure you read the "beware of clones" section carefully. There are some real shysters out there. Even the official UK reseller of the "lesser" sub 1GHz NanoVNA has been caught shipping cloned crap that doesn't even pass self test or work properly on multiple occasions. On to more optimistic things: these are really good. My neighbour is fairly deaf and has her television obnoxiously loud watching snooker until go…

The clone thing is more controversial than it appears at first. What actually happened was more like this:

1) The original NanoVNA developer publishes the design and quits the field.

2) OwoComm redesigns it for wider coverage, making extensive changes and substantial improvements. She releases the design under the GPL.

3) Some people in China start building clones such as the SAA-2N and making useful improvements of their own. They sell these clones at ridiculously low prices, which are only slightly profitable if at all.

4) OwoComm goes nonlinear and attacks the cloners with everything she has. (Un)fortunately she doesn't have much, because the GPL contains no anti-dumping provisions and the cloners did nothing to violate the extremely liberal license she used.

5) OwoComm does the only thing that makes sense, and returns to the drawing board to create an improved design of her own. Unfortunately the newer designs are closed, due to her previous negative experience with cloners.

It's more complicated than this, in that some of the recent clones have been accused of violating the GPL by failing to release their modified sources. But OwoComm has also not reacted in the most professional manner. The clone vendor hugen, in particular, has added quite a bit of value to the product and (as far as I can tell) has behaved in good faith, but he has been at the top of OwoComm's (s)hit list since the SAA-2N's release.

Kind of a bummer, because these are all some very talented engineers who have, collectively, delivered some amazing hardware to lots of people who would otherwise have been unable to afford anything like it. It's also true that there have been a lot of complete garbage clones released, but the one I mentioned is not one of them. It's a legitimately incredible piece of hardware. Painting all of the clones with the same brush does not capture the reality of the situation.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you realize you just admitted to a crime?

as a crime it may a be a small one. As a totally lacking empathy a*hole who denied a hearing impacted grandma her favorite show he is definitely a big one though.

There's that.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to sample at the Nyquist rate (i.e. 2x the intended measured frequency) to detect the presence of a particular signal but instead can just measure the overall power within a narrow frequency band of interest. Practically speaking this is done by mixing the sweep frequency down to at or around DC and then either directly measuring the power or sampling at a much lower rate and computing the power digita…

I don't think this is true, otherwise I could see the power on wifi bands with my 2.4ghz rtl-sdr device, instead of only up to 1200mhz.

If you remove the front-end RF filter from your SDR, you can indeed pick up 2.4 GHz with it using harmonics of the ADC clock frequency. But the rest of the signal processing pipeline may be too narrow to receive much energy from a broadband WiFi signal, and what you do receive will probably just look like noise in any event.

You could probably observe the leakage from a nearby microwave oven without much difficulty, though -- in fact, that is likely to be possible even without modifying the RF filter.

Basically, Nyquist applies to the modulation bandwidth, not the carrier frequency.

Re: NanoVNA: Low-cost handheld 4GHz vector network analyzer

#60
post #2

Make sure you read the "beware of clones" section carefully. There are some real shysters out there. Even the official UK reseller of the "lesser" sub 1GHz NanoVNA has been caught shipping cloned crap that doesn't even pass self test or work properly on multiple occasions. On to more optimistic things: these are really good. My neighbour is fairly deaf and has her television obnoxiously loud watching snooker until go…

There's probably a market for a sub $1 "smart chip" that can be added to a design. Something that can be factory programmed with a unique serial number. To keep from being cloned, verification operation wouldn't be as simple as reading out the number. Instead, the chip would respond with some sort of hash. Similar to how Apple secures their SOCs. The security wouldn't need to be perfect. Even something simple would b…

There are a bunch of options out there for doing this. Many ICs have built in key storage, but there are a few that are separate. There are some pros to using on micro key management, but one of the big cons is that many times the auth can be bypassed if you can overwrite or glitch the firmware.

If I were concerned about counterfeit things, in an application like this, you would pre program each one with a unique key and everything would be tied to it. Firmware upgrades need to be validated, to download, you would need the key, run the software, key needs to sign something back… etc.

https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/ATSHA204A

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