Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin • Hacker News Board

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#51

Post by patcon » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

STRONG agreement! I think if we'd found a way to co-exist with Neanderthals, we'd be faring much better with toeing around the edge of the great filter of Fermi's paradox[1]. The contemporary ability ("contemporary" as far as life history goes) to craft stories about human vs animal/nature has stimulated catastrophic growth and "othering" of nature in really significant way. Every religion and belief system would be affected by having a "bridge" intelligence closer to our own. (Not saying we'd have a history free of shameful treatment though.)

Related: a past comment on article "Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25104373

While recklessly creating new intelligent life is ethically nauseating to me, I also fear the status quo of NOT needing to consider these dilemmas. In my mind it's a clash between my visceral horror (of creating an intelligent being that is not human) vs a very real fear of global human extinction (of continuing on our destructive track without hard, global-scale conversations about our relationship/responsibility/entanglement with animals and other forms of life)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#Great_Filter

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#52

Post by HappyDreamer » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

Juliate wrote: post #36

flessner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of this discussion can evolve around definitions. If we look at history back until the industrial revolution, I would guess that less people had to work on food production and thus could go into creative fields. Intelligence is better measurable through IQ tests and we can see IQ score rising in societies today. (Flynn Effect)

Intelligence is also highly context-specific. Context today is not the same for the average human 200 years ago, even more different 2000 or 20k years ago. I'm not sure high IQ people from today would make it far in more ancient times, and not because smarter or dumber, but only because they are unadapted.

> Intelligence is also highly context-specific

It's not though. It's the opposite, and that's what makes it interesting, and why it's being measured. The g factor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)

General intelligence is related to the ability to learn new things in general, no matter the context.

And today's humans, would, if they got to start as babies 20k years ago, learn all there was to know, about that world. And they'd start feeling bored. Maybe they'd try to build and invent things, just to escape the otherwise for-the-brain empty days.

(You somehow got it the other way around :-) I wonder how you formed your opinions / beliefs about intelligence? If it's ok if I ask)

**

If, in your comment, replace IQ with "wisdom" and "knowledge", then it makes sense. A grown up human of toady -- yes, definitely unadapted, knowledge wise.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#53

Post by bigodbiel » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

idiotsecant wrote: post #46

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

As far as I know the commonly accepted meme of neanderthals as dopey slow caveman versions of us is not as well accepted as it once was. I've read that the current idea is that neanderthals were stronger, faster, and possibly even smarter than sapiens but that they were less efficient, suited more for quick sprinting and hard fighting in environments with plentiful food sources and less suited to long distance travel…

Evolutionary The Tortoise and the Hare

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#54

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #19

mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it possible that humans simply outbred them? You don't have to "get rid" of a population if you can interbreed and outbreed a given stock, no? It's not like one day they exist and the next they don't; rather, they slowly get absorbed into the larger, faster breeding pop. Or even disease they had no natural immunity for. I presume there would be some conflict as even among human pops conflict is a given --but no…

It's possible. It's just one of those explanations that we'd really love to believe, since the alternative is so unthinkable. It's been a hobby of mine to be skeptical of it. Even Kurzgesagt mentioned in passing that we're not sure if it was due to "a series of minor genocides." - https://youtu.be/dGiQaabX3_o?t=79 - https://youtu.be/CWu29PRCUvQ?t=165 If anyone knows of breadcrumbs to follow, please chime in. Genetic…

> since the alternative is so unthinkable

In the scientific parts of the ethnographic record (there is a split in anthro between scientists and non-scientists, see e.g. Napoleon Chagnon[0]; basically, he pointed out that the Yanomamo were breeding themselves for violence and was punished for it) the idea that our M.O. in small-scale societies when encountering outsiders, or when invading other groups, is to kill the men and take the women and children (often as slaves) is not all that controversial. See e.g. http://www.nature.com/articles/nature19758

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Chagnon

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#55

Post by nxmnxm99 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

idiotsecant wrote: post #46

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

As far as I know the commonly accepted meme of neanderthals as dopey slow caveman versions of us is not as well accepted as it once was. I've read that the current idea is that neanderthals were stronger, faster, and possibly even smarter than sapiens but that they were less efficient, suited more for quick sprinting and hard fighting in environments with plentiful food sources and less suited to long distance travel…

I believe Neanderthals were also less pack oriented, so humans just had bigger powers in numbers.

It's also fascinating that Neanderthals soundly beat us in the first round of incursions, and 50k years later humans presumably wiped them out entirely + all other variations of homonids

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#56

Post by jccooper » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #45

robbedpeter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also lived in caves for several tens of millenia across multiple stretches of time, without written language. There may have been some sort of ephemeral symbolic transfer (knots, beads, wood carvings,) but it looks like those cultures used primarily oral traditions. We know many non literate cultures develop memory palace techniques, so rigorous oral traditions can be incredibly durable and stable, with lots of in…

Nobody ever lived in caves. Artefacts were left in caves because they're the only place where the artifacts can persist for hundreds and thousands of years, and ancient man knew this just like the modern man.

There are plenty of caves that show evidence of long-term use of fire and burials, a good indication of habitation. However, it's true that caves were never a primary mode of habitation, just one that was convenient when it could be found... and pretty much the only one that we can see now due to differential preservation.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#57

Post by amanaplanacanal » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #44

thehappypm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a core argument in Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari.

Ok, he's most likely wrong. Interbreeding is pretty much proven. Do you know why he thought they didn't have strong language skills and how he linked that to deception and such or was he guessing? Because we have genetic tests nowadays, and it looks like they all bred in from the high percentages people have.

Wouldn't current percentages depend more on how adaptive those particular genes are than what the starting percentage was? How many generations between then and now?

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#58

Post by thaumasiotes » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

> I have to say that if Neanderthal women looked like this [0], they certainly looked a bit strange, but they were not repelling or appeared un-human.

The theory is out there that Neanderthals were furry; I believe that's because there isn't evidence of them wearing clothing.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#59

Post by jccooper » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

I've always enjoyed the theory that the Wild Man figure is a cultural memory of the last days of the Neanderthal. It's a bit far-fetched, since they've been gone for a very long time, but recent realization of specific cultural memories on the order of 10,000 years (and of more schematic ideas like the Pleiades for even longer) suggests it may be possible.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#60

Post by thaumasiotes » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #42

sillysaurusx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible. It's just one of those explanations that we'd really love to believe, since the alternative is so unthinkable. It's been a hobby of mine to be skeptical of it. Even Kurzgesagt mentioned in passing that we're not sure if it was due to "a series of minor genocides." - https://youtu.be/dGiQaabX3_o?t=79 - https://youtu.be/CWu29PRCUvQ?t=165 If anyone knows of breadcrumbs to follow, please chime in. Genetic…

The genetic data is clear that interbreeding took place, and neanderthals contribute a few % of modern human DNA in many Eurasian populations. The lack of surviving neanderthal y chromosomes could be suggestive of genocide though, but it's also possible that the neanderthal y chromosome lineages in humans disappeared due to subsequent expansions by newer lineages in human populations. For an example of non-genocide,…

> While their relations with other humans aren't always great, African bushmen populations haven't really experienced any genocidal decline.

They are confined to a few small areas in South Africa and a few small areas much, much further north than that. The obvious implication is that they used to cover the area in between, too.

This doesn't make for a very compelling example of non-genocide.