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Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

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Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#51

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

jacquesm wrote: post #47
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is merely a step away from arguing for 'wrongthink' as a policy. Ideas should be examined, thoroughly and openly. Staying away does the opposite to the goal you may want to achieve. Suggesting that ideas can corrupt is especially troubling on HN, which is supposed to be more focused on rational/logical discourse.

> Suggesting that ideas can corrupt is especially troubling on HN, which is supposed to be more focused on rational/logical discourse. But they can. Religion, racism, terrorism, fascism: they are all ideas that can corrupt, and some people are more susceptible to this than others. If you find that you are at the end of your wits and unable to find one more source for management advice to the point that you have to tu…

"For an encore: Sex tips by rapists, explosive manufacture by suicide bombers, vegetarian cooking by A. Hitler, marketing tips from J. Goebbels and how to run a start-up by Elizabeth Holmes."

I understand that you wrote it in jest, but isn't Goebbels studied precisely due to the nature of marketing ( propaganda ) he employed? I personally find it interesting. Why does association work so well? Why does it automatically follow that if Hitler wrote an absolutely spectacular vegan recipe that basically cures cancer, it is automatically off limits to everyone?

Before you answer, note that Americans brought some actual Nazi scientists after WW2(operation paperclip). Should US have done without?

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#52

Post by cogman10 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #45
cogman10 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works to an extent. You have to be careful to make sure you aren't just softening history with a "product of their time" argument. A good example is US slavery. You might mistakenly fall under the understanding that slavery was just a common and well accepted practice. Yet, from the founding of the US and earlier it was HIGHLY controversial. You can't just take the perspective of the slave owner, you must also c…

How is "product of their time" in any way softening it? If your life is short and brutal, odds are you will have niceness kicked out of you early on. And Roman life could be very brutish. One of the things we inherited from them was the word decimation, which came from a punishment of picking every tenth person to be put to death ( usually used for soldiers or uncooperative city ). It does not soften it. It just expl…

> How is "product of their time" in any way softening it? If your life is short and brutal, odds are you will have niceness kicked out of you early on.

I don't know enough Roman history to really say if "product of their time" works that way. But I do know enough about US history and figures where "product of their time" is meant solely to excuse horrendous behaviors.

That was more my point. You do have to be careful applying today's morality against yesterday's figures. However, you also have to be careful that you aren't using "it was a brutal time" as an excuse for yesterday's atrocities.

Was everyone calling for decimation or was this a tactic meant to shock the enemies? Did everyone agree with it or were there critics?

We know of the extremes of roman culture, but was that because historians needed to paint them as the extreme?

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#53

Post by quocanh »

evan_ wrote: post #48
quocanh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close/open-mindedness isn't about being morally wrong/right. It's about holding a vile idea in your head long enough to see its various facets. To study it and understand it. Openmindedness here means being able to understand that slavery is wrong at the same time you study what it reveals about the human condition. To be clear, no one in this thread has argued that slavery was good. If you think that, then maybe it'…

If you "[hold] a vile idea in your head" but only look at the aspects of the vile idea that would benefit you then you've chosen to ignore a pretty huge facet of the idea.

Yep. You got it. And I would go further - not just ignore but reject. That’s what is meant by separating ideas. You find what is orthogonal and keep what is useful.

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#54

Post by jacquesm »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #51
jacquesm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suggesting that ideas can corrupt is especially troubling on HN, which is supposed to be more focused on rational/logical discourse. But they can. Religion, racism, terrorism, fascism: they are all ideas that can corrupt, and some people are more susceptible to this than others. If you find that you are at the end of your wits and unable to find one more source for management advice to the point that you have to tu…

"For an encore: Sex tips by rapists, explosive manufacture by suicide bombers, vegetarian cooking by A. Hitler, marketing tips from J. Goebbels and how to run a start-up by Elizabeth Holmes." I understand that you wrote it in jest, but isn't Goebbels studied precisely due to the nature of marketing ( propaganda ) he employed? I personally find it interesting. Why does association work so well? Why does it automatical…

The US (and Russian, by the way) appropriation of German scientists and Nazi party members post WWII is certainly controversial and there are plenty of people who strongly believe that they should have stood trial in Nuremberg instead of being given a new job with plenty of perks.

As Tom Lehrer wrote:

"Don't say that he's hypocritical, Say rather that he's apolitical. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department, " says Wernher von Braun."

The sarcasm dripping of those words is hard to replicate without hearing it sung, I recommend the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#55

Post by fallingknife »

evan_ wrote: post #37
quocanh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You definitely have to be opened minded in order to read this. I can see how this could be offensive or distasteful but from a purely academic point of view it's interesting to see that a master-slave relationship was more than a contractual relationship. Leadership was just as important in that relationship as it is in a manager-employee relationship. And although we have since abolished slavery, we will always need…

you actually have to be close-minded to read this favorably, an open-minded reading would be to consider the "slaves" as people whose rights are being violated

All cultures have differing views on rights. So any culture will have elements that I see people whose rights are being violated. I guess I will have to avoid reading anything about them, unless the author takes an appropriately moralistic and judgmental tone, of course. I have to assume that I am right and everybody else is wrong. It's the only way to be open minded.

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#56

Post by fallingknife »

cogman10 wrote: post #34
xeromal wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anything historical, you really need to objectively put yourself in the context of the people you're looking at. Rome had cruelty laws for how to treat slaves. I'm not an expert but perhaps if the slave did their job then floggings, torture, and crucifixion were illegal, but were allowed if they broke the law. People will look back and probably think US execution is terrible and cruel while currently, a large por…

This works to an extent. You have to be careful to make sure you aren't just softening history with a "product of their time" argument. A good example is US slavery. You might mistakenly fall under the understanding that slavery was just a common and well accepted practice. Yet, from the founding of the US and earlier it was HIGHLY controversial. You can't just take the perspective of the slave owner, you must also c…

It was both a common and well accepted practice and highly controversial. They are not mutually exclusive, e.g. abortion.

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#57

Post by [deleted] »

MisterTea wrote: post #32
wins32767 wrote: post #27

"And just as a household needed slaves, so companies need staff. Permanent employees, like slaves, are far more desirable than outsourcing to outsiders. The Romans thought external contractors could never be relied on like members of the primary social group. They failed to turn up when instructed to, took liberties with their fees and, taking little pride in their work, carried out their tasks shoddily. With slaves,…

> "With slaves, however, who were stakeholders in the system," "With slaves, however, who's stakes were forcibly held by others in the system," FTFY

[deleted]

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#59

Post by dopamean »

wins32767 wrote: post #27

"And just as a household needed slaves, so companies need staff. Permanent employees, like slaves, are far more desirable than outsourcing to outsiders. The Romans thought external contractors could never be relied on like members of the primary social group. They failed to turn up when instructed to, took liberties with their fees and, taking little pride in their work, carried out their tasks shoddily. With slaves,…

I actually thought for a second this was a joke.

Re: Roman slaveowners were the first management theorists?

#60

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

jacquesm wrote: post #54
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For an encore: Sex tips by rapists, explosive manufacture by suicide bombers, vegetarian cooking by A. Hitler, marketing tips from J. Goebbels and how to run a start-up by Elizabeth Holmes." I understand that you wrote it in jest, but isn't Goebbels studied precisely due to the nature of marketing ( propaganda ) he employed? I personally find it interesting. Why does association work so well? Why does it automatical…

The US (and Russian, by the way) appropriation of German scientists and Nazi party members post WWII is certainly controversial and there are plenty of people who strongly believe that they should have stood trial in Nuremberg instead of being given a new job with plenty of perks. As Tom Lehrer wrote: "Don't say that he's hypocritical, Say rather that he's apolitical. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they co…

But, in your opinion, was it the right thing for US to do? Say you are Truman. You are responsible for US and how it fares on the world stage. What would be the right thing to do? Show trials in Nuremberg will satisfy the public. Useful heads and knowledge at the very least would be prevented from going to Russia, where who knows what they would work on. If Braun was truly apolitical, history timeline could have easily changed.
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