Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#51

Post by The_rationalist » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

merrywhether wrote: post #23

ninkendo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wish that “web applications” were more clearly distinguished from regular web sites. I hate that a regular website I may tap on a search result would ever want to send me notifications. But, if a site that is clearly more of an “application” to me (like an online spreadsheet or chat app, etc) wants to send me notifications, that could be a useful feature. If there were a more clear delineation between the two,…

A great heuristic would just be only granting notification prompt permission after you’ve installed the PWA to your Home Screen. That shows clear interest by the user in a longer-term relationship with the app, and they could grant other expanded prompt permissions based on that also.

Most users never add a shortcut to the home screen and yet use plenty of web apps.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#52

Post by mmis1000 » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

egeozcan wrote: post #43

jtbayly wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add: - Getting notifications from websites I want notifications from This should not be impossible just because there are 5 trillion websites I don't want notifications from.

Exactly, why can't there be presets to set the trust level on websites? - Hey, it seems like you want to use our notification feature, and we are delighted. For us to be able to push you messages, you need to set out trust level to "App", to do this... I mean, nobody will open a menu and click on 3 things for a spammy website, but many people will do it for their favorite 3 sites. - Clicking on this button will trust…

Edge exactly did that.

It collects feedback from users. If a site got rejected by literally every user. It will be put into the `don't even bother prompt the users` list.

And start from this point.

No edge user will be prompt actively by that site (There will still be a icon on the url bar. If the user really really want to enable it, he can click it himself).

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#53

Post by gruez » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #3

I'm excited to see support for Web Push. I realize that most people associate it with spammy sites asking for permission to send you notifications you don't want, but I think it hasn't really been given a chance because it lacks iOS support. Some things that it enables: - Low-friction asynchronous turn-based games (think “Words with Friends” but you don't have to install an app) - Single-purpose alerts (like CamelCam…

>- Easily scriptable notifications from your own code (I run notify.run which provides an HTTPS-to-WebPush bridge so you can send yourself a push notification from curl)

The article speculates that it might not be freely available like push notifications are for firefox/chrome.

>Maybe we have to register the origin with the Apple Developer Program, similar to the Safari Push Notification program for macOS. If this is the case, the developer will have to pay the annual Apple Developer Program fee to send push messages to their web users.

In that case you're probably better off installing a notification app from the appstore to handle it, eg. pushover/pushbullet.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#54

Post by coder543 » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

The_rationalist wrote: post #51

merrywhether wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great heuristic would just be only granting notification prompt permission after you’ve installed the PWA to your Home Screen. That shows clear interest by the user in a longer-term relationship with the app, and they could grant other expanded prompt permissions based on that also.

Most users never add a shortcut to the home screen and yet use plenty of web apps.

Apple could certainly do more to help people understand that they can install web apps to their home screen. Right now, it is an option that few users are aware of, buried in the menus as it is, and even fewer think about it.

When a related app is available in the App Store, Apple will show a big banner at the top of the web page encouraging you to install it... but they won't do anything for a PWA.

I think requiring "installation" of a PWA is a great way to balance the concerns people have about getting spammed with requests to spam you with notifications you don't want... but I also wish Apple would support PWAs better in general, so I can see it both ways.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#55

Post by gfodor » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #11

I really hope the WebXR API stuff will come with support for VR headsets in Safari on desktop, and that whatever Apple's rumored VR headset end up being will also support it. WebXR has been great for my app at work, but we're basically locked into the Quest 2 right now because Mozilla dropped the ball on WebXR support. Oculus is the only one doing significant VR work with WebXR in their Oculus Browser, which is a Chr…

Agree - WebXR is mostly off peoples' radars, but if at least two vendors end up adopting it well, it will have massive long term consequences (good ones) for the democratization of VR and AR.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#56

Post by philistine » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 6:34 PM UTC

egeozcan wrote: post #43

jtbayly wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add: - Getting notifications from websites I want notifications from This should not be impossible just because there are 5 trillion websites I don't want notifications from.

Exactly, why can't there be presets to set the trust level on websites? - Hey, it seems like you want to use our notification feature, and we are delighted. For us to be able to push you messages, you need to set out trust level to "App", to do this... I mean, nobody will open a menu and click on 3 things for a spammy website, but many people will do it for their favorite 3 sites. - Clicking on this button will trust…

Make it even simpler. If the website is installed as a Web App on your iPhone home screen (it has an icon), it can ask for and send notifications. It appears in your list of apps in notifications in Settings and can be fine-tuned that way.

You remove it from your home screen and the notification permission disappears.

The bugs related to notifications currently seen in the beta are due to this user interaction not yet being implemented I'd bet.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#57

Post by HWR_14 » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #3

I'm excited to see support for Web Push. I realize that most people associate it with spammy sites asking for permission to send you notifications you don't want, but I think it hasn't really been given a chance because it lacks iOS support. Some things that it enables: - Low-friction asynchronous turn-based games (think “Words with Friends” but you don't have to install an app) - Single-purpose alerts (like CamelCam…

I don't get push notifications. If I don't have time to poll your service, I don't have time to respond to a notification. Besides, I'd rather not have my priorities determined for me.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#58

Post by littlecranky67 » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 7:08 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #4

paulgb wrote: post #3

I'm excited to see support for Web Push. I realize that most people associate it with spammy sites asking for permission to send you notifications you don't want, but I think it hasn't really been given a chance because it lacks iOS support. Some things that it enables: - Low-friction asynchronous turn-based games (think “Words with Friends” but you don't have to install an app) - Single-purpose alerts (like CamelCam…

Just to add: - Getting notifications from websites I want notifications from This should not be impossible just because there are 5 trillion websites I don't want notifications from.

The problem is, that you can always "force" the user to allow you notifications or cannot proceed. And $GREEDY_MEGACORP would abuse their power and send you a "verification code" through the push notification, else you cannot process the signup etc.

The good thing about the Apple Appstore, that promotional/marketing push notifications are forbidden and will get your App banned from the Appstore. Just allowing generic WebPush on PWAs will result in companies requiring it with dark patterns, just to increase your "engagement" with their product (read: send you spam).

I have mixed feelings about webpush, I myself as a developer want it for my users, but I see the history of the web and how everything nice got destroyed eventually by spam.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#59

Post by riskable » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

ninkendo wrote: post #12

paulgb wrote: post #3

I'm excited to see support for Web Push. I realize that most people associate it with spammy sites asking for permission to send you notifications you don't want, but I think it hasn't really been given a chance because it lacks iOS support. Some things that it enables: - Low-friction asynchronous turn-based games (think “Words with Friends” but you don't have to install an app) - Single-purpose alerts (like CamelCam…

I just wish that “web applications” were more clearly distinguished from regular web sites. I hate that a regular website I may tap on a search result would ever want to send me notifications. But, if a site that is clearly more of an “application” to me (like an online spreadsheet or chat app, etc) wants to send me notifications, that could be a useful feature. If there were a more clear delineation between the two,…

Hate to break this to you but even a website that consists of nothing but HTML (no CSS/JS) is still an "app". It's still being executed in the runtime environment of your browser when you load it. Just because the website chose to limit it's use of the features to just one (HTML) doesn't mean it's not an app (when executed in a web browser).

If you read that HTML in a text editor then yeah, that's not an app but if you're reading it in a web browser you're "running it".

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#60

Post by sefrost » Tue, Feb 01, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

mmis1000 wrote: post #52

egeozcan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, why can't there be presets to set the trust level on websites? - Hey, it seems like you want to use our notification feature, and we are delighted. For us to be able to push you messages, you need to set out trust level to "App", to do this... I mean, nobody will open a menu and click on 3 things for a spammy website, but many people will do it for their favorite 3 sites. - Clicking on this button will trust…

Edge exactly did that. It collects feedback from users. If a site got rejected by literally every user. It will be put into the `don't even bother prompt the users` list. And start from this point. No edge user will be prompt actively by that site (There will still be a icon on the url bar. If the user really really want to enable it, he can click it himself).

Do we know which sites are in that "no prompt" list?