Earlier quoted context omitted.
Trans Lifeline [1] calls that practice "Non-consensual rescue" and they're very strongly against it. > The organization’s hotline does not engage in non-consensual active rescue,[15] meaning operators never call 911, police, or emergency services on callers without an expressed request and consent, based on research associating involuntary hospitalization with increases suicide attempts after discharge.[16][17] Addit…
Can't help but have flashbacks to The Incredibles where Mr. Incredible was sued by a person he saved from suicide because that was involuntary...
Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
51–60 of 71 posts
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Haha my mind cannot believe this to be true and yet it'd take some 4D chess to have made up such a strange, specific lie.
I'm not like, broadly familiar with community service as a punishment across the globe, cultures, and time, but the way I'm familiar with is a mandate of X hours and its on you to find a place to volunteer and get them to sign off. So its not like the court told them to do this particular act of penance, which yes would strain credulity, it was self selected.
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#53My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…
When reddit added a "get help" message for suicide hotlines it was a way for 'nice' people to tell you to kill yourself without a death threat. Kind of how old church ladies used to tell you they will pray for your immortal soul to not end in hell. I have a feeling that those two groups are related in the biological sense.
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#54Clearly people contacting them are in a state of distress. I bet none of them read that, and many would not be considered legally able to agree to the terms due to their mental state. But IANAL
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
> plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk How's that legally done? Is suicide even a crime in most countries? I don't think it is.
In Florida we call it the "Baker Act" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act
In that movie as well, Rosamund’s character got old people institutionalised by making bogus reports from a doctor and sold off their property. I didn’t really like the movie but I thought it was kind of unrealistic that the government could really do such a thing (as her character explains the state can step in and essentially put a person in rehab/old age care center if they are given evidence that the person is “unstable”. Rosamund’s character played the system by manipulating the courts). I thought that part was unrealistic but I guess I was wrong.
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#56Since when did making profits become unethical? What is unethical is giving away traceable customer information like phone numbers or locations of the texts. I certainly hope all that data is stripped. Otherwise then yeah it's unethical
It's literally a nonprofit. If they earn a profit or facilitate some other profit earning enterprise it is unethical, by definition. In a just world it would also be illegal and prosecuted.
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Incarceration over cannabis is already seen as embarrassing. Mental health care overall, but especially drug addiction will be looked at as positively medieval. The barriers to treatment for ADHD. The disastrous state of treatment for people, but especially women with autism. Hell, the way women are treated by some mental health professionals, it might as well still be the dark ages where hysteria was considered a va…
> The barriers to treatment for ADHD. The disastrous state of treatment for people, but especially women with autism. I'm going to put "treatment" in huge quotes. Do these people need treatment or do they need society to stop bothering them and accept them the way they are?
The idea that there isn't such a thing as a condition causing malfunctions in mental processes, and that all such things are just differences in preferences and such that merely need to be "accepted", doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If someone gets brain damage which damages say Wernicke's area, and causing Wernicke's aphasia. It would be quite silly to say that this isn't a problem or damage which could make sense to treat.
I see no reason that this should change when the differences are more subtle and such.
Now, that being said, I do think it makes sense to basically always defer to the person's own evaluation of whether they need treatment. If someone claims they don't need or want treatment, forcing them to receive "treatment" is, uh, in almost all possible situations, very bad? (note : this doesn't mean "in almost all situations in which this actually ends up happening.". I don't know about those cases. But the danger of like, classifying political opponents as being mentally ill and as needing treatment, is such a terrible danger, that norms should forbid anything within a very large conceptual distance from it.)
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Incarceration over cannabis is already seen as embarrassing. Mental health care overall, but especially drug addiction will be looked at as positively medieval. The barriers to treatment for ADHD. The disastrous state of treatment for people, but especially women with autism. Hell, the way women are treated by some mental health professionals, it might as well still be the dark ages where hysteria was considered a va…
> The barriers to treatment for ADHD. The disastrous state of treatment for people, but especially women with autism. I'm going to put "treatment" in huge quotes. Do these people need treatment or do they need society to stop bothering them and accept them the way they are?
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#59My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…
This is 100% untrue. Their objective is to prevent suicide. If you intend to harm yourself, and nobody is around to make you safe, yes, they bring people in to enforce safety and yes that is often law enforcement. They will take the suicidal person to an ER, where the ER staff will do an assessment, and then may opt to put you in an involuntary hold if a licensed psychiatric provider deems it is necessary. But it is more likely that even if you do need hospitalization, they will recommend a voluntary hospital stay. Most care providers look to give people the least restrictive care that still gets the job done.
It is also important to note that you called on behalf of friends but refused to give out any info. There is very little they can do in that case. You are not the one at risk. You do not control the environment of the one at risk. You won't tell them who is at risk. I can understand why they got frustrated. I can also understand why you are frustrated. But none of those frustrations make your assertion true.
Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry to hear you had these shitty experiences :( FWIW, I agree with some others who say that it differs between hotlines and it does depend. I volunteer at one (working at software doesn't provide enough meaning as far as activities go, and this does, as a side thing), and we are very strict about not forcing advice (or rescue) on anyone. (I had to go through multi-month trainings, practice, then supervision etc…
I had a whole rant on hotlines, but I honestly didn’t know there were good ones. No one in my support group had a positive story about hotlines. I am extremely glad good ones exist. If you have a list, I’ll share it with my support group. Edit: removed my horror story… we don’t need another one on this thread.