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Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

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Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#51

Post by broeng »

joshuaissac wrote: post #41
porcoda wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Since when could you buy COTS and expect to get the code too? I don’t remember a source archive accompanying the pre-subscription Adobe, Microsoft, or any other major piece of software that is now subscription-ware. That’s pure fantasy.

> Since when could you buy COTS and expect to get the code too? Since the 1950s and 1960s. IBM, for example, provided source code for their products until 1983.[1] The full Apple II source code was included in the Apple II Reference Manual;[2] similarly for the Atari 400/800 Technical Reference Notes.[3] 1. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hSBrPSYgjI4C&redir_esc=y (page 59) 2. https://archive.org/details/applerefj…

But back then, you were rarely paying for the software directly, you were paying for hardware.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#52

Post by jmacd »

jpomykala wrote: post #16

I’m running a super simple translation management system where people can manage, host, auto-translate their translation files. How I supposed to run my app without subscriptions? In last 30 days, I transferred over 280 GB of translation data from my service to end-users around the word. Should I tell DeepL, Google and AWS that they should offer me their services for free or what? EDIT: I apologize if this sounds too…

I'd love to check out your service if you care to share the name here?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#53

Post by chrisseaton »

thom wrote: post #30

Obviously tangential to the main point here, but one thing I'm grateful for is my bank (Monzo) allowing me to set up virtual cards. I no longer have any anxiety about speculative subscriptions because I can unilaterally cancel anything.

Are you cancelling the service? Or are you just stopping paying? If they’re still providing the service you just aren’t paying then I don’t know if that puts you in the wrong.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#54

Post by sirwitti »

Macha wrote: post #34
porcoda wrote: post #18

This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Given that developers need to be paid, and resources cost money, there needs to be a way to rectify that gap between the consumer and maintainer. At one point we did so by paying for an initial version of software, and then paying for updates. Now that we don’t do that, but…

> or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. To take IntelliJ as an example, I can't think of an improvement since 2018 that I really would pay for. Largely enabling that is why they moved to the subscription process because people like me would use IntelliJ 18 for five or so years then update for OS support or whatever. €100/yr is way more than I used to pay for intelliJ, €240/yr is way more t…

Even though I don't like paying for software monthly, I think that the JetBrains suite of tools is an example of how this can be a fair deal.

100€/year for tools I use professionally every day and that improve my business is a no-brainer to me. Also I really like the way the prices go down if you use it for more than a year.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#55

Post by jsmith99 »

Macha wrote: post #34
porcoda wrote: post #18

This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Given that developers need to be paid, and resources cost money, there needs to be a way to rectify that gap between the consumer and maintainer. At one point we did so by paying for an initial version of software, and then paying for updates. Now that we don’t do that, but…

> or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. To take IntelliJ as an example, I can't think of an improvement since 2018 that I really would pay for. Largely enabling that is why they moved to the subscription process because people like me would use IntelliJ 18 for five or so years then update for OS support or whatever. €100/yr is way more than I used to pay for intelliJ, €240/yr is way more t…

At least Microsoft are still making personal office subscriptions cheaper than buying office was. 5 users, each with several devices and their own terabyte of OneDrive, is £60 a year at many retailers. I assume they will jack up the price later.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#56

Post by jsmith99 »

ryandrake wrote: post #38

A lot of comments are already addressing this horrible trend of moving from standalone native software to “SaaS” but this one is also terrible: > now trying to trick people to use One Drive more A lot of software are now deliberately blurring the line between local storage and cloud storage, not just Office. When I choose to save a file, I expect to save it locally to my hard disk, in a file that I can find and manip…

There's a trade off between privacy and security when it comes to backups. For the average user, cloud backup is probably the right choice.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#57

Post by ponow »

porcoda wrote: post #28
southerntofu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're now getting the worst of both worlds. It was not uncommon back in the day you could buy a copy of the software which was bundled with the source code. Now you have to pay and you don't have the source code. You're just trapped into an ecosystem you have no control over. I of course understand your point that software developers need to pay rent, but i'm interested in exploring other possibilities, such as…

Seriously? Since when could you buy COTS and expect to get the code too? I don’t remember a source archive accompanying the pre-subscription Adobe, Microsoft, or any other major piece of software that is now subscription-ware. That’s pure fantasy.

I vaguely recall that you could get source code back in the 70s and early 80s, with early UNIX say or mainframe code, because the revenue was from the big machines. Technical reference manuals for the early IBM PC were awesome.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#58

Post by ponow »

fleddr wrote: post #42
porcoda wrote: post #18

This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Given that developers need to be paid, and resources cost money, there needs to be a way to rectify that gap between the consumer and maintainer. At one point we did so by paying for an initial version of software, and then paying for updates. Now that we don’t do that, but…

Or...updates nobody asked for. Quite a few casual users might be perfectly happy with Office 2003, or Adobe PS6, as anything after that they don't need. And not just that, they may not want the UI to be revamped every 2 months. The option to just have stable, working software is increasingly taken away. Not to mention the anti competitive nature of these two parties. They can just bundle an additional app in their su…

There is a serious amount of diversity on the app stores, though. It's not as if you must use Photoshop, with zero alternatives.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#59

Post by cryptica »

There are also other things beyond vendor lock-in which facilitate rent-seeking:

- Cronyism. The only way to get a big B2B customer for you SaaS product is if you are friends with an executive at a big tech corporation. Otherwise your chances are nil - No matter how good your product is.

- Regulatory capture. Big corporations have an advantage because they can use their connections to politicians to change the regulatory environment in their favor.

- Monetary capture. The monetary system reinforces the dominance of big corporations because they and their customers (from which their revenue is derived) have access to easy money from huge government contracts and banks (since they can borrow at lower interest rates than others).

- Limited liability. Corporations are legal constructs which are not liable for crimes (especially negligence) in the same was as people are. Corporations don't go to jail for example; they can always replace executives who have been committing crimes on their behalf, pay a small fine and keep going as if nothing happened. This creates an incentive for executives to commit crimes on behalf of corporate shareholders and then shareholders have an incentive to use their aggregate political connections to shield executives as much as possible from personal liability... They will throw them under the bus in extreme cases but then repeat and keep trying to normalize misconduct.

So with vendor lock-in, there are 5 factors which rig the markets - Each one is very powerful on its own but apparently still insufficient to keep the economy running as it is...

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#60

Post by ivanmontillam »

southerntofu wrote: post #25
robertlagrant wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, having this plus using something like Confluence for internal documents is quite appealing.

If you're willing to pay for a license, why not donate to the document foundation instead? This way you get a great office suite (Libreoffice) and every one gets it too. A win-win situation?

Unfortunately in this case, the UI/UX of LibreOffice not even comes close to MS Office's one.

Some FOSS products are that great, but if you come from MS Office, LibreOffice feels a lot like an early 2000's downgrade.

The compatibility and robustness of LibreOffice is excellent, but the UI/UX and something as simple as the default design templates that come with it, it's just not up to the level of MS Office, and customers do judge by that criteria.

I wish LibreOffice was up that standard, so there would be more consumer choice. I even tried LibreOffice as my daily driver for sometime, and I just couldn't stand it.

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