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Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

bmj.com

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Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#51

I hope that at some point we get to see an in-depth business case study of Pfizer and how they’ve been so successful out of the pandemic. They seem to have an unbelievable grasp of the science-marketing game and how to navigate it successfully at scale. Without getting too far into controversial territory, I’ve observed that - Out of many competing vaccines, Pfizer was always the “cool” one, in both scientific and la…

> It’s failed to stop the pandemic in any meaningful way

This isn't true, and makes one question the rest of your message. What is true is that the vaccine doesn't really stop people from contracting Covid. But it prevents them from being sick, which is what matters. This is verifiable.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#52
In my country there is no media I believe less than the fact-checking one, officially given to friends of my current government to the wife of one of the most well-known people in Spain, for its channel "La Sexta", her name is Ana Pastor, wife of Ferreras.

Besides controlling the media nearly as a monopoly, they receive favors from government like public money, when they are supposed to be private media. Same for Cadena Ser, for which there are jokes as "the most public private radio ever".

All this, at least in Spain, are the same people and I consider it basically a layer of corruption with the tax payer money. Also, they have been caught several times doing fact-checking by denying some fact, and when it was proved true (there is a video in Internet from Joan Planas where he requested to correct information), they did not correct the information giving excuses about the inability to do it (so they were aware of the "error").

That is the level of confidence I have in fact checking in Spain. In other countries, I do not know, but I see it as a fight for the monopoly of the truth and to control and censor with the excuse of better quality of information, which is not true here. Besides that, fact-checking should not be even a thing, because things are not so clear sometimes. In fact, I have seen some articles from those fact-checking agents with extreme bias loads with the only purpose of shifting people opinions.

Those were not facts, they were merely perspectives and why you should think what they say and why it is not correct according to them to use one term or another. All in all, propaganda.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#53
From Lead Stories' Response [1]:

> The "Missing Context" label applies to content that (while true or real) might still be misleading because crucial information is missing. Given the enormous engagement the article received and the kinds of reactions it elicited that certainly seems to have been the case here.

“Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial”

> The BMJ.com headline, shown above, fails to make two important distinctions:

> The allegation concerns just three of the 153 sites at which the vaccine was tested on 44,000 participants. It would have been less misleading to say "data integrity issues at 3 of 153 Pfizer trial sites."

Given how many of the social media audience would read just the title, perhaps the missing context label is accurate.

[1] https://leadstories.com/analysis/2021/12/lead-stories-respon...

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know it this ideal of "just debunk it" doesn't work. Not just because a correction doesn't have the same reach, but because one audience will actively reject and ignore the evidence and then continue using the article on social media as "evidence" itself.

The audience for the BMJ is clearly listed as 'intended for health professionals'. I do think that these people would take seriously evidence for opposing views or experiments and draw their own - valid professional conclusions. These people are also unlikely to get their information from social media and take action on patient care because of it. I am firmly against this lowest common denominator approach of people…

So you're in favor of Facebook's policy on this? The article can still reach its intended audience (as you say, health professionals don't get their information from social media) and surely the BMJ will be more - not less - willing to publish controversial articles if they don't need to worry about them being used to mislead the public at large by being shared out of context.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#55
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It states that Thacker has been double vaccinated with Pfizer vaccine. Anti-vax conspiracy theorist? That is clearly nonsense.

Plenty of quacks follow the principle of "do as I say, not as I do." It's a very common behaviour amongst populist politicians to talk shit about vaccines and then being fully vaccinated.

It has nothing to do with the author of the article. It just baseless accusations.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#56

I hope that at some point we get to see an in-depth business case study of Pfizer and how they’ve been so successful out of the pandemic. They seem to have an unbelievable grasp of the science-marketing game and how to navigate it successfully at scale. Without getting too far into controversial territory, I’ve observed that - Out of many competing vaccines, Pfizer was always the “cool” one, in both scientific and la…

My understanding is Pfizer was the "cool one" because it was a well established pharmaceutical company that created a vaccine on a compressed timeline that drastically cut the rate of severe illness and death, with performance better than much of its competition. i.e. it was to a great extent based on merit (both in the past and present).

> The vaccine has caused a significantly higher number of cardiac side effects than initial studies reported, which has just sort of been swept under the rug

Links with actual numbers to illustrate the scale of the alleged issue are pretty necessary with this kind of accusation.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#57
post #27

The entire idea of "fact checking" on social media is premised on the notion that fact checkers have some kind of superior epistemic merit compared to the checkees. When you're fact checking random people or journalists that may or may not be true, but why does Zucc think facebook's checkers are superior to the BMJ? What are the fact checker's credentials, and most importantly what is their track record? The extreme…

I think they are mostly journalists that couldn't get hired on at a major newspaper.

So this would imply they are trustworthy and dedicated to the truth, because we know major newspapers are neither trustworthy nor have any connection with the truth these days

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#58

I hope that at some point we get to see an in-depth business case study of Pfizer and how they’ve been so successful out of the pandemic. They seem to have an unbelievable grasp of the science-marketing game and how to navigate it successfully at scale. Without getting too far into controversial territory, I’ve observed that - Out of many competing vaccines, Pfizer was always the “cool” one, in both scientific and la…

> - It’s failed to stop the pandemic in any meaningful way

One of the nordic countries has 10x more infections than the first wave and 0.5x people in intensive care. While the vaccines have failed to stop the pandemic, I disagree that the contribution is not meaningful.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#59
post #34

Quoted post unavailable.

I will never truly understand the infatuation with Hunter Biden. Oh, the son of a candidate to be president/the president is using their position for personal gain in a corrupt fashion? That's certainly not something that has been happening for the last half decade...

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#60

From the last discussion: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... The BMJ is not the shining city on the hill here. You can have problems with Facebook policing information, but Thacker is unquestionably an anti-vax conspiracy theorist and the BMJ is allowing him to use their reputation to push that narrative.

Have you actually read that article? It's expecting a whole lot of detailed evidence from an article. And maybe they're right? Maybe the article should have provided more excruciating details. But the details it does provide - just from the bits quoted here - seem enough to justify a stance of "We need to do better than this", at least. It smacks of "Yes, some sloppy science was done here, but you can't prove it chan…

I've read the article, Facebook's "fact checker" page, the BMJ's response, and the fact checker's response, as well as the posted response from Science Based Medicine. None of it "smacks of" anything, the series of events is clearly laid out.

A former Ventavia regional director provided internal company documents to Thacker that laid out potential flaws in clinical trials run by the company for Pfizer's vaccine candidate. Thacker's reporting on these documents places noticeable spin towards anti-vax sympathies for example:

> Thacker writes in the introduction, in which he claims that Ventavia unblinded patients, not that “inadvertent unblinding may have occurred”. There’s a huge difference between the two.

Even without Thacker's spin, this is concerning and deserves investigation. However, for the overall safety of the Pfizer vaccine it's not a significant factor. Ventavia ran 3 out of 153 clinical sites, and signed up about 1000 of 44000 subjects who participated in the trial. Even completely disregarding any data that came from Ventavia, there would be overwhelming evidence of the vaccine's efficacy and safety.

The obvious framing here should be that Ventavia is potentially an irresponsible steward of pharmaceutical trials and Pfizer needs to have greater level of oversight over such contractors. The framing Thacker went with is that the Pfizer vaccine's safety and efficacy are in question due to falsified trials. The latter is simply untrue, and reveals an agenda that is concerning from an editor at the BMJ.

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