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Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

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Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#51
post #28

I'd like to understand why so many young people find extremist content so persuasive and engaging. I can't stand it, and I instantly close any website that allows for extreme content.

This is well studied. The summary is that they target isolated or vulnerable people. It's the same with cults, diploma mills, and multi-level marketing schemes.

I’d be interest in those studies. I have experience with all three.

MLMs. My experience is that MLMs victimized people with high levels of trust and connection.

It often stars with a relative or church member. Or a workmate. The sort of people that are hard to say no to.

They use high pressure sales tactics, combine with exploiting social capital.

Diploma mill. People who don’t have experience with post secondary education, and high trust for authority.

I’m not aware of any network affects. It’s not like your sister in law is pressuring you to get a Ph. D from Baleful University.

I have seen legitimate schools marketed this way: “if you don’t get your kids into Yuppyville Elementary, they wont have a chance at Harvard.”

I’ve seen cults … too many.

Most mainstream religious organizations have people at the margins. People who are mentally ill. Have drug issues. Etc.

It’s hard to incorporate them into the mainstream of church life. But most churches feel they are obligated to reach out to people like that.

Para-church organizations are becoming more popular. Like knights of Columbus (they’re old). If someone wants to start up a para church org, there’s not much anyone can do to stop them. They piggy back on mainstream denominations.

Combining people with issues with unmanaged para-church orgs can be toxic, and lead to cults quickly.

I know most people on HN probably have a negative view of religion, and don’t make much of a distinction between “good religion” and “bad cult.”

But a good example is anti-vaccination ideas. Almost no major religious body rejects COVID vaccines. It’s the para church orgs doing that.

It’s the same environment that creates predatory groups like “I the leader, and like Abraham must have multiple wives … and I chose all of you as my wives.”

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#52
post #27

I think the far more worrying trend is trying to silence anyone with different political ideologies. Like their handpicked example of a user discussing "'destroý' Islam". Note, they added the quotes around destroy. But the actual content is reasonably thoughtful discussion of appointed supreme court judges and only claims "to end radical islam".

It’s interesting because “destroy whiteness” was and is a popular talking point in certain circles or the left. Obviously they don’t literally mean destroy white people but as always the benefit of the doubt is extended to them but “destroy Islam” immediately is interpreted as inherently violent or evil.

IIUC, anti religion (ex Christianity) is pretty equally distributed on the left and right... Right?

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#53
post #27

I think the far more worrying trend is trying to silence anyone with different political ideologies. Like their handpicked example of a user discussing "'destroý' Islam". Note, they added the quotes around destroy. But the actual content is reasonably thoughtful discussion of appointed supreme court judges and only claims "to end radical islam".

It’s interesting because “destroy whiteness” was and is a popular talking point in certain circles or the left. Obviously they don’t literally mean destroy white people but as always the benefit of the doubt is extended to them but “destroy Islam” immediately is interpreted as inherently violent or evil.

The main consistent principle on the social-justice-left is rooting for the underdog. By that logic, a Hindu minority in Pakistan saying "destroy Islam" is good, but a Hindu majority in India saying the same thing is bad.

Of course the side effect of that belief is that people spend a lot of time trying to prove they're underdogs, e.g. look at kids on Tumblr listing all the ways they're oppressed because they have self diagnosed ADHD/aspergers, or trying really hard to claim ancestry of an oppressed group.

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#54
post #28

I'd like to understand why so many young people find extremist content so persuasive and engaging. I can't stand it, and I instantly close any website that allows for extreme content.

People who are angry will seek out reasons to be angry. It resonates with their neural network.

I think we often mistake the symptom for the disease.

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So allow open lies and open hate?

Yeah. Otherwise, who decides? Nobody is qualified to define allowable speech and thinking. Exceptions to any attempt at sets of "allowable speech" rules are trivially produced. Concepts like hate and lies are vague and nebulous. The best you can do to prevent actual harm in the real world is allow unfettered speech and discussion. Speech is thinking. Non-consensual thought control is evil. Consensual speech and discu…

Ok, well, reading that I realize I "have different ideas than you" about that! Like I'm not sure that

> The best you can do to prevent actual harm in the real world is allow unfettered speech and discussion.

No-one likes fetters, so that way of framing it makes it sound a no-brainer. But, to give a real world example, I guess most people think HN would be much worse without moderation of any kind. I'm not sure how one would test the truth of your statement. It doesn't sound obviously true to me, at least. It sounds like you are 100% certain. What evidence would it take for you to change your mind? I suspect belief in such "free speech absolutism" comes from abstract principle first, with real-world evidence a very distant second.

Seems a similar situation to, say, pacifism. I'm very anti-violence, anti-war etc, but I'm not a pure, idealist "pacifist". To say you'd never use violence, in any situation?! that non-violence is always worse - just sounds like you haven't thought so much about it. e.g. even if thugs were dragging off your loved ones? You wouldn't lift a finger? I doubt it. That would seem like your abstract principle was trumping prudence/evidence/reason etc, producing non-sensible results, in a similar way.

I don't think there are simple and good answers to any of these questions. Yours is simple but, I think, not good.

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#56
post #28

I'd like to understand why so many young people find extremist content so persuasive and engaging. I can't stand it, and I instantly close any website that allows for extreme content.

Nobody in an extremist group thinks that they are an extremist. To them, it is the obvious rational and right mindset. You may be in groups (or hold opinions) that others out there consider extremist, but to you feel very natural in the circles you associate with.

This is it. Take abortion, one side thinks that it is extreme to kill what they perceive as children, and the other side thinks that it is extreme to limit women’s rights to what they perceive as a medical procedure.

When you get to the bottom of these things you find different axiomatic beliefs. Some of these axiomatic beliefs are not based in truth but that is not relevant to the people who hold them.

There’s also a kind of tidal motion insofar as some beliefs move from the fringes to the mainstream (e.g. lgbt rights) and other beliefs move from the mainstream to the fringes. There’s always going to be some people who disagree with that motion, indeed many elderly people hold “extreme” beliefs (overt racism, etc) they are just not politically active usually.

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#57
post #53
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting because “destroy whiteness” was and is a popular talking point in certain circles or the left. Obviously they don’t literally mean destroy white people but as always the benefit of the doubt is extended to them but “destroy Islam” immediately is interpreted as inherently violent or evil.

The main consistent principle on the social-justice-left is rooting for the underdog. By that logic, a Hindu minority in Pakistan saying "destroy Islam" is good, but a Hindu majority in India saying the same thing is bad. Of course the side effect of that belief is that people spend a lot of time trying to prove they're underdogs, e.g. look at kids on Tumblr listing all the ways they're oppressed because they have se…

Well, more like "halfway-consistent" principle. When it's them who are holding power over some underdog group, they'll happily call that group a "basket of deplorables".

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#58
post #6

So what is right wing discourse in India? How would I distinguish it? Not to be disrespectful, I just would like to know since I have such a large number of Indian friends.

> So what is right wing discourse in India? How would I distinguish it? Not to be disrespectful, I just would like to know since I have such a large number of Indian friends.

I'm not very familiar with it, but I understand a big component is "Hindu nationalism," which seeks to turn India into an exclusively Hindu nation. That's resulted resulted in attacks and official harassment against minority Muslims and Christians.

A couple weeks ago the NY Times had an article on it: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/world/asia/india-christia...

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#59
post #6

So what is right wing discourse in India? How would I distinguish it? Not to be disrespectful, I just would like to know since I have such a large number of Indian friends.

> So what is right wing discourse in India? How would I distinguish it? Not to be disrespectful, I just would like to know since I have such a large number of Indian friends. I'm not very familiar with it, but I understand a big component is "Hindu nationalism," which seeks to turn India into an exclusively Hindu nation. That's resulted resulted in attacks and official harassment against minority Muslims and Christia…

There are plenty of Indians who will also say the NY Times loves to publish exaggerated and negative articles about India.

Re: Extremist content on Reddit, Discord worrying trend for young adults in India

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is well studied. The summary is that they target isolated or vulnerable people. It's the same with cults, diploma mills, and multi-level marketing schemes.

I’d be interest in those studies. I have experience with all three. MLMs. My experience is that MLMs victimized people with high levels of trust and connection. It often stars with a relative or church member. Or a workmate. The sort of people that are hard to say no to. They use high pressure sales tactics, combine with exploiting social capital. Diploma mill. People who don’t have experience with post secondary edu…

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I feel like you're describing the intellectual vacuum that is Reddit. I've found conversation here to be much more nuanced, at least since the start of 2021.
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