Hiring a designer is a premature optimization • Hacker News Board

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#51

Post by ori_b » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:35 PM UTC

martinkallstrom wrote: post #39

grannyg00se wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post does not suggest avoiding designers completely. It is about timing. Of course this depends on the type of startup, but in many cases you can absolutely ignore brand message until you have some level of basic functionality and alpha testing done.

I put more faith in alpha testing based on a design without a single line of code written, than on code without a single thought put into the design.

False dichotomy. Unless you're saying that a developer is by definition unable to think about design.

A developer might not do as good a job at it as someone who focused their career at it, but I would be surprised if developers couldn't put together something that was at least passable if they put a modicum of effort into it.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#52

Post by martinkallstrom » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:36 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #51

martinkallstrom wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put more faith in alpha testing based on a design without a single line of code written, than on code without a single thought put into the design.

False dichotomy. Unless you're saying that a developer is by definition unable to think about design. A developer might not do as good a job at it as someone who focused their career at it, but I would be surprised if developers couldn't put together something that was at least passable if they put a modicum of effort into it.

I didn't say a designated designer needed to do the thinking.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#53

Post by chc » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:37 PM UTC

nirvdrum wrote: post #44

chc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coder will generally have an idea about how to do so in the same way that a designer can understand how to architect and code a 900kloc enterprise app — it will be very superficial. In general, other people's jobs always look easy because you don't realize how much you actually suck at them.

I assume for the purposes of this discussion, design and usability have been melded into a single concept. However, sability principles are certainly something a developer can learn and scientifically derive. The SIGCHI proceedings are a great resource. Making that attractive is a completely different skillset and one I certainly don't have. However, based on the amount of flowery yet wholly unusable crap I come acro…

This is kind of what I'm talking about. There is some subset of usability principles that you can "learn and scientifically derive" without actually delving in and becoming a usability expert, but that just makes you the UX equivalent of a cowboy coder hired because his uncle heard he knew computer stuff — you might get stuff done, but you will not be a substitute for an expert unless you actually become one.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#54

Post by Wolf_Larsen » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:37 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #22

mootothemax wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find someone with familiarity in building good UIs I'm inferring from your comment that one can't have basic knowledge of decent UI without being a designer. Surely a coder can have a good idea about how to lay out a decent interface without having the skills to actually do so? It's this missing skill that a theme gives them.

A coder will generally have an idea about how to do so in the same way that a designer can understand how to architect and code a 900kloc enterprise app — it will be very superficial. In general, other people's jobs always look easy because you don't realize how much you actually suck at them.

And if a designer had a working product after the "architect" part, you'd see a lot more designer-only apps being built.

The fact is that a coder CAN get a working product up without the design-equivalent of "coding". They can lay out a UI just as well as an average professional designer (I would know), but the execution will certainly fall short of an average professional designer (I would know).

With that said, I'd always prefer to hire an excellent designer before building a UI, but I rarely will because I like to build more than I like perfect UIs.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#55

Post by Wolf_Larsen » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

blankenship wrote: post #20

mootothemax wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find someone with familiarity in building good UIs I'm inferring from your comment that one can't have basic knowledge of decent UI without being a designer. Surely a coder can have a good idea about how to lay out a decent interface without having the skills to actually do so? It's this missing skill that a theme gives them.

Surely a coder can have a good idea about how to lay out a decent interface My experience says mostly no. They're different skillsets. Occasionally they overlap in an individual.

"Occasionally they overlap in an individual" and "Surely a coder can have a good idea about how to lay out a decent interface" are basically the same sentence.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#56

Post by chc » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

Wolf_Larsen wrote: post #54

chc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coder will generally have an idea about how to do so in the same way that a designer can understand how to architect and code a 900kloc enterprise app — it will be very superficial. In general, other people's jobs always look easy because you don't realize how much you actually suck at them.

And if a designer had a working product after the "architect" part, you'd see a lot more designer-only apps being built. The fact is that a coder CAN get a working product up without the design-equivalent of "coding". They can lay out a UI just as well as an average professional designer (I would know), but the execution will certainly fall short of an average professional designer (I would know). With that said, I'd…

If the execution falls short, I wouldn't say they did it just as well. Would you say a coder who creates a bug-ridden ball of spaghetti is just as good at programming as one who writes clean, correct, bug-free code, but just doesn't execute as well?

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#57

Post by trustfundbaby » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:45 PM UTC

Again with the absolutes ... in some cases this is true, in some cases it is not ... if you're going into a market that's established and you want to make a splash, do you think that going in with a theme forest page is going to get you the buzz you need or get you laughed out of town?

It would be nice if you could always say ... x + y = z, but that isn't the way the world works ... having a nice design out the gate can get you far enough to be worth that extra $5k that you invest in it. It just depends.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#58

Post by trustfundbaby » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 3:47 PM UTC

duopixel wrote: post #48

Using a downloadable theme on your product is somewhat akin to using Wordpress to program your web app. The compromises will be dictated by the CMS/Theme, instead of you being able to call the shots Say you need a tool to reorder categories. You know the best way to do this would be with drag and drop, but the theme only has table views! So you place an "order" field in a table view and hope for the best. Then you re…

Say you need a tool to reorder categories. You know the best way to do this would be with drag and drop, but the theme only has table views! So you place an "order" field in a table view and hope for the best.

---------------

very good point, I've been bitten by this one before

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#59

Post by nirvdrum » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 4:11 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #53

nirvdrum wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume for the purposes of this discussion, design and usability have been melded into a single concept. However, sability principles are certainly something a developer can learn and scientifically derive. The SIGCHI proceedings are a great resource. Making that attractive is a completely different skillset and one I certainly don't have. However, based on the amount of flowery yet wholly unusable crap I come acro…

This is kind of what I'm talking about. There is some subset of usability principles that you can "learn and scientifically derive" without actually delving in and becoming a usability expert, but that just makes you the UX equivalent of a cowboy coder hired because his uncle heard he knew computer stuff — you might get stuff done, but you will not be a substitute for an expert unless you actually become one.

Well, on the other hand, I've grown weary of "UX" experts that think that means just making things look pretty. The term HCI shouldn't be foreign to them. Usability studies shouldn't just be grabbing three colleagues and asking them what they think (few ever even get that far). There is a lot of psychology that goes into usability. I'll take someone that studies that over someone that only reads other usability blogs (i.e., an echo chamber) any day of the week.

And again, I contend there are people that do both extraordinarily well. And then there's a ton that think they can, on both sides of the fence.

Re: Hiring a designer is a premature optimization

#60

Post by nirvdrum » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 4:14 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #53

nirvdrum wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume for the purposes of this discussion, design and usability have been melded into a single concept. However, sability principles are certainly something a developer can learn and scientifically derive. The SIGCHI proceedings are a great resource. Making that attractive is a completely different skillset and one I certainly don't have. However, based on the amount of flowery yet wholly unusable crap I come acro…

This is kind of what I'm talking about. There is some subset of usability principles that you can "learn and scientifically derive" without actually delving in and becoming a usability expert, but that just makes you the UX equivalent of a cowboy coder hired because his uncle heard he knew computer stuff — you might get stuff done, but you will not be a substitute for an expert unless you actually become one.

And I perhaps chose the incorrect term in saying "derive" earlier. I don't think conducting a usability study is going to magically surface a design for you. You need some sort of background to influence your hypotheses. But you can test and measure usability and you don't need to be well-versed in CSS 3 or Photoshop to do so was more my point. And you can draw upon well-established principles to get yourself started.