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Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

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Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#51

Post by d0gsg0w00f »

echelon wrote: post #14
jcadam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current job market is punishing poorly run companies. It's too easy to pick up the phone and get a new job quick these days if you're unhappy, contributing to churn.

When does the market for engineers turn into a buyer's market? If the economy goes into recession or worse, do those playing hot potato get stuck out in the cold?

Once the talent pipeline fills up (not likely) or leadership realizes that technology is a mixed blessing and may not be worth the complexity. Right now you have to have technology to compete but eventually mid sized companies will realize it's not worth the millions a year it takes to try and keep up with the Joneses and keep the technology as simple as possible.

However, it's also difficult to find unskilled labor so the only alternative is automation. Just look at all the companies that won't answer a phone anymore and force you to do everything through an app.

So IMO tech wages will remain high for quite some time.

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#52

Post by vmception »

echelon wrote: post #14
jcadam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current job market is punishing poorly run companies. It's too easy to pick up the phone and get a new job quick these days if you're unhappy, contributing to churn.

When does the market for engineers turn into a buyer's market? If the economy goes into recession or worse, do those playing hot potato get stuck out in the cold?

Yes who cares

Take the risk or don’t

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#53

Post by vmception »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33
jimnotgym wrote: post #31

> Engineering First Organizations > Like Google or Facebook these are organizations where engineering trumps everything else. If you’re not in engineering, your pathway to promotion is limited. Just browsing Facebook's board... MZ-dropout SS-MBA Mckinsey etc PA-Accounting and Business studies NK- economics & management, Mckinsey again RK - lawyer PT- lawyer Not being engineers sure held them back! https://investor.fb…

I know as many non-engineers as engineers at Google right now. The idea that non-engineers are sidelined is wrong.

Same, a lot of people relocated during the pandemic but to the same places, some Googlers told me they had never hung out with engineers at Google till then

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#54

Post by exolymph »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #12
Zigurd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hire a department full of persuasive people. Expect to get persuasion. On top of which, subverting an organization's decision making processes and channels is a core competency of good sales departments. A two-edged sword if there ever was.

> subverting an organization's decision making processes and channels is a core competency of good sales departments Know of any good books on this aspect of sales?

I assume they're gesturing at commissions? Salespeople are usually paid based on a percentage of the deals they close, incentivizing them to promise more to clients in a given timeframe than the eng team can realistically deliver. Then sales usually leaves it to eng to readjust the client's expectations. That's the classic conflict between the departments.

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#55

Post by Mountain_Skies »

collaborative wrote: post #19
criticaltinker wrote: post #2

Had to read quite a bit before Conway’s Law was mentioned, but glad it was. Viewing organizations and software engineering through this lens has been a game changer for me personally. As an individual contributor I now appreciate horrendous technical debt and glacially slow development as systematic organizational issues, rather than blaming burnt out or lazy engineers. Now I’m much more aware and critical of technic…

This is why my dream is to work completely alone. I still need employment to survive but hope one day I won't Another good quote is "a cow with 2 owners gives no milk and eats no grain" (castilian proverb)

Seems similar to the saying that 'success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.'

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#56

Post by late2part »

jmercouris wrote: post #39
xapata wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cycles of arbitrary periods are nearly indistinguishable from a random walk. My guess is the latter.

What does this mean? Can you please rephrase?

Here's what I think he means.

If you look at trends over an arbitrary period, they may look useful.

If you look at the similar trends over a larger period, they look different.

Therefore, the smaller periods are just random variations relative to the larger periods.

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#57

Post by siliconc0w »

Lots of re-orgs is also a pretty big indicator. A lot of VPs/directors need a reason to exist and they create that reason with reorganizations. This is basically the enterprise equivalent of pushing the food around the plate to make it seem eaten. With a re-org you can shed or minimize expensive to operate systems that don't generate a lot of clear value(i.e most tech-debt).

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#58

Post by majormajor »

jodrellblank wrote: post #22
jcadam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current job market is punishing poorly run companies. It's too easy to pick up the phone and get a new job quick these days if you're unhappy, contributing to churn.

How is everyone moving and also moving somewhere better? Is it not the case that the majority of open job opportunities are ones other people have recently left from unhappiness?

In addition to the other comments, better for one person may not be better for the next person.

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#59

Post by mathteddybear »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33
jimnotgym wrote: post #31

> Engineering First Organizations > Like Google or Facebook these are organizations where engineering trumps everything else. If you’re not in engineering, your pathway to promotion is limited. Just browsing Facebook's board... MZ-dropout SS-MBA Mckinsey etc PA-Accounting and Business studies NK- economics & management, Mckinsey again RK - lawyer PT- lawyer Not being engineers sure held them back! https://investor.fb…

I know as many non-engineers as engineers at Google right now. The idea that non-engineers are sidelined is wrong.

Yeah, especially that in the context of this article, the distinction between Engineering and Product is presented as

> Engineering wins by producing beautiful and scalable systems, in pursuing that they sometimes build too complex too quickly. Product, on the other hand, wins by putting new stuff in front of customers as often as possible.

Re: Hunting Tech Debt via Org Charts

#60

Post by resonious »

siliconc0w wrote: post #57

Lots of re-orgs is also a pretty big indicator. A lot of VPs/directors need a reason to exist and they create that reason with reorganizations. This is basically the enterprise equivalent of pushing the food around the plate to make it seem eaten. With a re-org you can shed or minimize expensive to operate systems that don't generate a lot of clear value(i.e most tech-debt).

Out of curiosity, are you saying that most tech debt is systems that don't generate much value?

If you had asked me, I'd probably say that tech debt is mostly systems that do generate value but are built poorly or in a rushed manner. Deadlines creep up, devs crunch, they ship a "working" product but it has design flaws that manifest as technical debt.

But now that I think of it, I've definitely also experienced what you're mentioning (I think). I've worked on projects with questionable motives that ultimately end up cancelled or abandoned. The leftover code remains and continues to confuse newcomers.

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