Against Translation • Hacker News Board

Re: Against Translation

#51

Post by wongarsu » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

slmjkdbtl wrote: post #13

Speaks as if "translation" doesn't happen in reading in native languages. A word's meaning can change every other decade, when I'm reading something in native tongue I'm constantly rationalizing what I read into my own words, which I would categorize as translation. Some good translators' work might even convey more accurate original intent than reading natively yourself because they're supposed to study the context…

> One interesting point I heard from a Lex Friedman podcast is it'll be interesting to do a database of diffs between different translated versions of the same literatures. I think stuff like this can greatly aid people's understanding of the original intents.

This is quite common in many religious circles. For example if you read an interesting verse in the bible you can gain a much deeper insight by looking at multiple of the dozens of translations available. Of course it can't beat a deep understanding of the original language and culture, but it scales much better (even with just the bible we are talking about two ancient languages and cultures spanning a decent area and thousands of years, while the sum of the translations gives you an approximation from just reading English).

Re: Against Translation

#52

Post by krisoft » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 11:21 AM UTC

doublepg23 wrote: post #46

bombcar wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good example of this is the translations of Asterix and Obelix - so much of the humor is puns which don’t translate, so they have to rework the jokes to make new puns - and it works surprisingly well.

This happens frequently in anime translations as well.

That is true. One famous example where perhaps this went wrong are the jam doughnuts in pokemon. The heroes are eating some rice balls (onigiris) on the screen and perhaps to make the snack more relatable the US dub translates it as jam doughnuts. Which was probably a good choice when one can only see the script, but when on one can see something which is clearly not a jam doughnut it causes some confusion. :)

Similarly somehow in the Hungarian translation of the Harry Potter books they translated Slytherin's Locket as Slytherin's padlock. (which was probably just a mistake) And when in later books it become clear by the character's interactions that it is very much not a padlock they just changed the translated name like it never happened. :D

I don't envy translators. It is a really hard business. Especially for dubs, they don't just have to match the meaning and the emotion, but also have to match the lip flaps too. Not easy at all.

Re: Against Translation

#53

Post by rex_gallorum2 » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

causi wrote: post #43

rex_gallorum2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a narrative, not a technical manual. I found it beautifully written and filled with insight.

Beautifully written as it is, it's missing huge chunks of the picture. How can you talk that much about translation, natives and learned speakers, international and immersive culture, and never once mention the internet? This would have been an immensely powerful essay in 1985. Now it seems like a dusty tome in a corner of the library with a burned-out lightbulb. It has insights, sure, but he's not living in the same…

I think, in a way, that was exactly his point. And I have a feeling I might be living more in his world than in yours.

Re: Against Translation

#54

Post by Baeocystin » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

thombat wrote: post #21

Baeocystin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view on translations is that if literary luminaries such as Gabriel García Márquez and Vladimir Nabokov both think that the English versions of their work fully stand up to the test (which they are both on record as stating), then that is good enough for me. I am not monolingual. I know what it feels like to read in different languages, and here's the thing: The words? The grammar? Easy. You can learn enough to st…

Slightly related: Tove Jansson (author of the Moomin books) related that the process of working with her English translator on an early book had been revelatory, in exploring what she was actually meaning to say to the extent that she reckoned that by the end the translation was an improvement on the Swedish original.

Oh, I loved the Moomin books as a child! I read them in English, and the language use was a delight; I didn't even realize they were a translated work until I got older. How fun to learn that a quality translator worked closely with the author to keep the magic alive in a different form.

Re: Against Translation

#55

Post by causi » Tue, Dec 21, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

rex_gallorum2 wrote: post #53

causi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beautifully written as it is, it's missing huge chunks of the picture. How can you talk that much about translation, natives and learned speakers, international and immersive culture, and never once mention the internet? This would have been an immensely powerful essay in 1985. Now it seems like a dusty tome in a corner of the library with a burned-out lightbulb. It has insights, sure, but he's not living in the same…

I think, in a way, that was exactly his point. And I have a feeling I might be living more in his world than in yours.

His thinking isn't bad, though. I would enjoy having his insights without ignoring the elephant in the room.