To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans • Hacker News Board

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#51

Post by Borrible » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 7:48 AM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #40

Borrible wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but has the number decreased because of some fancy fences at the Last Exit Caltrain or because of a whole program of measures? https://evolvetreatment.com/blog/palo-alto-teen-mental-healt...

Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is. Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.

> Suicide isn't logical or rational

Sometimes it is.

Not for most of the type of suicide we talk about here, I agree with you. But there are differences.

Regarding firearms, what about suicide rates in Japan? Would they be higher with easier access to firearms?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#52

Post by halfdan » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

captainmuon wrote: post #39

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's follow…

Right, but it is really important that you follow up with psychological help. Sometimes I wonder if suicide prevention measures like this just remove the last bit of agency that people have, and while they will live on, they will just suffer silently. Maybe suicides are not thoughtfully planned out, but they are often preceeded by a very long phase of suicidal thoughts and rumination, and sometimes fixation on specif…

That is all assuming that all will remain suffering. How likely is that? It seems much more likely that some may look on this dark period in their life and be grateful they didn't go through with a suicide.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#53

Post by neuroma » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:05 AM UTC

Obviously an emotive topic and I hope to tread lightly. Overwhelmingly people who have bear miss suicide attempts later are glad they did not do it. Suicide is rarely a release from trouble, causing massive problems for those who are left, often burdening them with a lifetime of struggle.

Naturally we ache at the thought of removing useful ceilung fans rather than addressing the root cause. Yet who would criticise a seat belt, saying we just need to drive safely?

Suicide is hard to reliably predict despite substantial efforts to do so. One if the models I've found useful is that of thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377972/#!po=40...

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#54

Post by watwut » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

captainmuon wrote: post #39

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's follow…

Right, but it is really important that you follow up with psychological help. Sometimes I wonder if suicide prevention measures like this just remove the last bit of agency that people have, and while they will live on, they will just suffer silently. Maybe suicides are not thoughtfully planned out, but they are often preceeded by a very long phase of suicidal thoughts and rumination, and sometimes fixation on specif…

Some suicides are after long rumination, others are momentary impulse. Sometimes triggered by psychosis, bout of paranoia, manic phase, PTSD or something other of the sort acting out. There are people who have multiple suicidal attempts, but from what I recall from stats many try once and that is it.

Following may be biased sample, but when I read mental health forums a while ago there were people who wanted to try suicide in the past and were glad it did not worked out.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#55

Post by weregiraffe » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #40

Borrible wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but has the number decreased because of some fancy fences at the Last Exit Caltrain or because of a whole program of measures? https://evolvetreatment.com/blog/palo-alto-teen-mental-healt...

Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is. Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.

> It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind,

Your every decision is a result of a temporary state of mind.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#56

Post by watwut » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

Borrible wrote: post #51

bayesian_horse wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is. Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.

> Suicide isn't logical or rational Sometimes it is. Not for most of the type of suicide we talk about here, I agree with you. But there are differences. Regarding firearms, what about suicide rates in Japan? Would they be higher with easier access to firearms? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

> Would they be higher with easier access to firearms?

Quite possibly. Is there a reason to think they would not?

And yes, culture where suicide can be honorable or beautiful ending will likely have more suicides. Western tradition was treating suicide as a sin and stigma.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#57

Post by neuroma » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

SapporoChris wrote: post #36

Ygg2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However making suicide harder, does reduce the suicide rate. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...

It's a boondoggle. With a bonus effect of increasing deaths from extreme heat. Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die. edit In addition, 88 per cent of students said they did not think that “replacing ceiling fans with wall-mounted fans in all IISc hostels (would) help curb student suicide”. Read more at: https://www.deccanherald…

> Now, it might seem rude of me, but I am against killing people that want to live in order to maybe save people that want to die.

The point is that most times people who commit suicide don't want to die, they simply feel life is currently so awful, and they is so little hope of change, that there is no alternative.

Those thoughts are usually transitory and people on the other side express relief that steps were taken to stop them, buying time in which to heal.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#58

Post by watwut » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:19 AM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #37

jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates. This is a fine measure, assuming that it's follow…

What I am wondering: Will these obstacles reduce overall suicide rates or just local ones? Hard to measure I guess.

The claim is that they do reduce overall suicide rates. They are not offseted by more suicides at other places or later on.

Generally, as far as I can tell from reading about suicides and mental health, this is largely settled research. I dont understand why there is so much opposition to it on HN as if it was something new or controversial.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#59

Post by weregiraffe » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:19 AM UTC

taneq wrote: post #26

NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As there are many ways to commit suicide, school could equally tie everyone in padded cells, and tube feed students in order to avoid any suicide. Be careful when using such studies, as future AI may use those and similar - to remove all freedoms from humans, arguing that humans are dangerous for themselves, thus creating new Matrix?! Root cause can be maybe a terrible education system and society that is fit more fo…

Thus creating a NEW Matrix? You've said too much!

This will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Re: To reduce student suicides by hanging to fans, institute in India removes fans

#60

Post by screye » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 8:25 AM UTC

I think this is a genuinely good idea. (which should obviously be accompanied by actual rehabilitative options and de-stigmatization of mental health) I went to similar institute in India (NIT, the proverbial first losers), and 3 students hung themselves over the span on 2 years. (1 acquaintance, 1 friend) From what was made public, their decision to commit suicide was a rash one, tied to the fear of failure. (one was a break up)

I have been depressed before, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But, the decision to go from crushing depression to suicide is often fast (span on a few days) and genuinely reversible, as long as the person lives. We know that far more men die due to suicide, due to their choice of a more fatal weapon (gun to the dead > slashing veins).

Making it harder to commit suicide gives institutions and social systems time to help the person out.

_______

Indians aged 18-19 at top engineering institutes are probably the most underdeveloped humans you will ever meet.

These kids sacrifice their entire personal/social/philosophical development for 2-6 years, to study 12+ hrs/day for the IIT-JEE entrance exam. They have no life, no hobbies, no personal aspirations outside getting into IIT.

Once they're in, they are often alone & underprepared for the general rigors of campus life. They feel too emotionally about their first relationship or they take their first failure too hard (I have had to talk my India CBSE top 10 rank friend out of harming himself, because he got a 'B' for the first time in his life. I kid you not).

Every part of this process is exploitative and unfair to the children. But, in a country where getting into IIT/IISc opens doors to the world's elite, you can hardly fault them/ their families for simply optimizing for the best value proposition.

_______

IMO, top Engineering institutes in India need to allow students some time to breathe after they come in. Let them live out their high-school days in some capacity during their freshman year of college. Let them find an identity that isn't tied to their grades and studies.

Lastly, but most importantly, teach them about mental health and struggles that they are bound to face. Help them truly grok that failure is an inevitable part of everyone's life. Unfortunately, I find that this is still under discussed even in elite universities in the US. What hope do these Indian institutes have?