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They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

nytimes.com

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Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#51

Post by KennyBlanken »

blamazon wrote: post #3

See for yourself the Reddit forum that NYT alludes to: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ Notable rule on that subreddit: > Posts about non-public figures must redact the entire name(s) of everyone in every image. Block it out completely. Don't scribble and allow redacted names to leak through. Profile pictures are not allowed and must be blocked out.

Adding on: some HNers are strawmanning, claiming HCA is mocking random poor innocent covid deceased, when the rule specifically says (emphasis mine):

> "Nominees have made public declaration of their anti-mask, anti-vax, or Covid-hoax views, followed by admission to hospital for Covid"

Much of the point of the Herman Cain Award is that the award winners were mocking others for wearing masks, getting vaccinated, and socially distancing.

These anti-mask/anti-vax people have been absolutely prolific in physically assaulting (up to and including murdering) retail staff. Harassing and assaulting flight attendants, with record numbers of . Harassing school committee members and public health officials, such that meetings have had to go virtual or have police presence.

...and here we are clutching pearls because the stuff they posted publicly on social media is being reposted? And occasionally people are figuring out who they are and harassing the families?

It's worth noting that HCA posts regularly include follow-up social media posts by family members or friends expressing anger at the deceased's friends who continue espouse anti-mask/vax views, or who express regret, or encourage people to mask and vaccinate...and that from reading the sub for months, I often see a lot of comments from people empathizing with the family members and friends of the deceased.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#53

Post by ifyoubuildit »

jordanpg wrote: post #16

Putting aside any special reverence we might have for the dead, I guess the abstract question is: is there any social value to publicly shaming those who uncritically call into question settled scientific claims, putting others at risk? I would say there is some value. Our society will not survive if it is socially acceptable to do this. COVID is exhibit A. Climate science is exhibit B. Settled scientific matters, li…

In a general sense, can you call something a "settled scientific matter" if so many people are in disagreement about it (ignoring your or my own personal beliefs)? The idea that anything is "settled" with regards to something as young as covid seems a little bold to me.

That aside, there is plenty of social value to trashing people that are in the out group. If you meant is there utility for the whole population, sure, if you can guarantee that you are correct in your position and that shaming will have the desired effect. That seems unlikely in general, but especially in the case of a bunch of redditors shitting on dead people.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#54

Post by cxr »

jordanpg wrote: post #47
cxr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results of Millikan's oil drop experiment were settled. They were also wrong. Calling for people to not subject fact claims to scrutiny because they're considered settled is not a pro-science position. It's anti-science. Matters of science don't need anyone to come to the universe's aid by telling people to give it a rest. They'll hold up.

There is a difference between the results of one experiment in a narrow subfield, and the results of an uncountable number of experiments across disciplines and time. There is a difference "subjecting fact claims to scrutiny" and people without scientific training weighing in on scientific questions. Most people on this forum would have no problem mocking someone who believed their cell phone worked by magic. Somehow…

> people without scientific training weighing in on scientific questions

Tell Faraday.

What is the end goal? What you're describing carries a non-zero risk but provides zero benefit. To repeat: science by its nature doesn't need anyone to ensure the scales are tipped in its favor. They're welded into that position.

> Most people on this forum would have no problem mocking someone who believed their cell phone worked by magic

Should they? If you're doing something for sport, then be honest about it. Don't couch it in pro-science terms when actual belief goes the other way just because circumstances mean you can get by without having to show your work this time.

> Somehow the logic is different when the topic is vaccines.

This is pretty blatantly dipping a toe into waters of both strawmanning and ad hominem. Stop trying to read between the lines. It's not helping you get the right answer here. (I'm vaccinated. Cast your insults and aspersions somewhere else.)

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#55

Post by angelzen »

jordanpg wrote: post #16

Putting aside any special reverence we might have for the dead, I guess the abstract question is: is there any social value to publicly shaming those who uncritically call into question settled scientific claims, putting others at risk? I would say there is some value. Our society will not survive if it is socially acceptable to do this. COVID is exhibit A. Climate science is exhibit B. Settled scientific matters, li…

The OA story is a great illustration why we should never put aside common decency. Break down indecent behavior dampening barriers at the risk of fickle mobs looking for the next target to shame. No one is safe. Even the most self-interested person has plenty to gain from a society that highly values common decency.

* Meet other people? The settled science is that you are putting others at risk of infectious disease.

* Drive a car? The settled science is that you are putting others at risk of blunt force trauma.

* Have a barbecue party? The settled science is that you are putting others at risk of food poisoning.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#56

Post by loudtieblahblah »

peteradio wrote: post #50
toomuchtodo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/StarZimmerman6/status/146217386567357644... (r/HermanCainAward celebrates its 99th and 100th IPA. This is the 99th and 100th person(s) who decided to be vaccinated after lurking on the Herman Cain Award subreddit. | Nov 20, 2021) Oxygen concentrator fund raise and donation for someone terminally ill who could not afford it: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qmw4o8/a_d... So, it app…

At best some small fraction of a life has been saved.

there's no way to measure the number of people who have been further entrenched by YET ANOTHER PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT where the tribal actions of those belonging are geared towards social climbing within the cloister as opposed to outreach to those who don't already agree with them.

Increasingly, the modern left seems hellbent on demeaning "those people" on any number of topics, from culture war, environmentalism, COVID. They can't meet people half way in the hopes that some, in turn, will open their ears to what they have to say. Instead the entire movement - from BLM, to the pro-vax crowd, the pro-trans movement, the climate change movement, is merely to sneer down anyone who even slightly disagrees with them, including fellow leftists who might be slightly out of lock-step.

This is not a political movement that can grow in any meaningful way. It means to humiliate, dominate and reign it's superiority over others. And for now - they have the power of the media, hollywood, academia, most HR departments and such on their side that helps them feel comfortable in this ... lack of a political strategy.

But when their goals and the goals of corporate america don't align, just watch how this "strategy" will work out for them.

YOu have to actually treat people... like people, even though you disagree, to build your movement.

That's the hard work of politics.

The left is insulated by a corporate system who's tricked them into thinking their goals are aligned. They're not.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#57

Post by jfengel »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #45
toomuchtodo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/StarZimmerman6/status/146217386567357644... (r/HermanCainAward celebrates its 99th and 100th IPA. This is the 99th and 100th person(s) who decided to be vaccinated after lurking on the Herman Cain Award subreddit. | Nov 20, 2021) Oxygen concentrator fund raise and donation for someone terminally ill who could not afford it: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/qmw4o8/a_d... So, it app…

how do measure all the people who have become increasingly entrenched in their anti-vaxx positions due to encountering those communities? how many simply "hesitant" just double-down in contrarianism to that sub-reddit of assholes?

A diminishing fraction, because "hesitant" is rapidly becoming indistinguishable from "never".

Whatever they were waiting for, it has either come or will never come. For a while they claimed to be waiting on non-emergency approval, and that happened months ago. More and more data comes in; it's not like they're waiting for LHC-style five-sigmas.

Eventually, people say, "You're not 'hesitant', you're anti-vax, and you get treated as anti-vax". They can't hang on to a permanent "Well, I'm still thinking about saving my own life, but since you were mean to me I won't."

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#58

Post by corinroyal »

unpopularopp wrote: post #27
blamazon wrote: post #3

See for yourself the Reddit forum that NYT alludes to: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ Notable rule on that subreddit: > Posts about non-public figures must redact the entire name(s) of everyone in every image. Block it out completely. Don't scribble and allow redacted names to leak through. Profile pictures are not allowed and must be blocked out.

Reddit is famously okay with hate if you hate the right group of people see /r/FuckYouKaren, /r/COVIDAteMyFace/ and of course aforementioned sub.

And thank God for it. Entitled people harassing retail workers deserve our hate. Idiots who endanger those around them by ridiculing anti-pandemic measures deserve our hate. You act like hate is a bad thing where criminals and plague-spreaders are the targets.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#59

Post by raxxorrax »

notreallyserio wrote: post #38
brightball wrote: post #9

One of the most disturbing things I’ve watched during the last 2 years is the number of people: 1. Celebrating the deaths of people who didn’t get vaccinated because they were pro. 2. Mocking the deaths of anyone who died from Covid under the assumption that it’s being politically over-labeled. There’s a sign in a funeral home in my hometown with a quote that leaves me very disturbed about our future. “Show me the ma…

I don't "celebrate" their deaths, but when someone uses a position of authority to endanger others by discouraging basic measures like getting vaccines and staying 6+ feet apart, or by claiming the disease is a librul plot, and then dies of the disease, I can't help but feel some schadenfreude. I still feel bad for their families. Not only did they lose a loved one, they learned the relative value their loved one pla…

That does not sound very convincing. I think "Schadenfreude" in this case is an expression of an inferiority complex to be honest. Your pathos for victims doesn't seem to be genuine, it sounds like a pretext to be able to blame others, preferably along some partisan lines.

I am vaccinated but I don't believe unvaccinated people endanger me or other unvaccinated people, nor that we should mandate vaccination, especially not for young people. I assume that sooner or later we will have a conflict, it is fairly predictable.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#60

Post by raxxorrax »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #51
blamazon wrote: post #3

See for yourself the Reddit forum that NYT alludes to: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ Notable rule on that subreddit: > Posts about non-public figures must redact the entire name(s) of everyone in every image. Block it out completely. Don't scribble and allow redacted names to leak through. Profile pictures are not allowed and must be blocked out.

Adding on: some HNers are strawmanning, claiming HCA is mocking random poor innocent covid deceased, when the rule specifically says (emphasis mine): > "Nominees have made public declaration of their anti-mask, anti-vax, or Covid-hoax views, followed by admission to hospital for Covid" Much of the point of the Herman Cain Award is that the award winners were mocking others for wearing masks, getting vaccinated, and s…

These were individual actors but you blame people as a group. You can justify that all you want, but it will never be anything other than a distraction of your own personal failures.
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