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Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

commonwealmagazine.org

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Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#51

Post by Jensson »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #40
Jensson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example: Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors. Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books. Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist…

Ok I read the link to the article above, it was sort all over the place but a major part of the article was about a teacher who found that some of their non-white students thought it lame to always be reading about white people, so the teacher mixed their curriculum with books that they thought would appeal more to their students, which had black characters in them. It was not specified in this part that the books ad…

Yes, as you noticed the article is written by a liberal and is pro adding more books by black authors. My point wasn't to show that this is a bad movement, but to show that the movement and a resistance to the movement exists. My view is that those who argue that resistance to such movements shouldn't be tolerated are making society worse. There are good reasons to be against such movements, meritocracy has a point, but social justice and diversity also are good points, so I see no reason to forcibly reject either side.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#52

Post by Zababa »

> We pragmatists must be content to offer suggestions about how to patch things up, how to adjust things to each other, how to rearrange them into slightly more useful patterns. That is what I hope to have done in these lectures. I see myself as having shifted a few pieces around on the philosophical chessboard, rather than having answered any deep questions or produced any elevating thoughts.

I feel like this attitude is very important in software, especially on legacy codebases. Everything is broken, nothing is "as it should be". But you can't really wait for everything to be perfect. You have to work with what you already have, maybe cleaning up a bit here and there. Pragmatism is very important to not fall into despair, inaction or burn-out.

This may also hint at something deeper. Is there only one answer to deep questions? Is there one perfect way to handle strings? Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But what's certain is that we could do better than what we're currently doing, whatever is our position. And once we're doing our best within the constraints, we can choose which tradeoffs to pick. But at this point, they will be tradeoffs, not fundamentally better ways to do things.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#53

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #37
ModernMech wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious to know the basis of your assertions, to try to get a better idea of this situation from your point of view. First, the idea that many have been trained to believe this. What is this training specifically they are receiving? How many teachers/professors/daycare workers are receiving this training and where? By whom? Is the basis of this belief something you read or personal knowledge of teachers and profe…

Interestingly this is the top article on The Atlantic at the moment: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universiti... It’s an interesting trend where suddenly the universities are not only trying to find the truth, but apparently they have a monopoly on it.

I checked my IL university out of sheer curiosity, but in that case there was no official statements of any kind. Local student paper covered it with mild bias towards racial inequities, but still within the parameters of a neutral tone. Is it possible that Atlantic is citing CA university as an example that just happens to be an outlier?

I don't think it is impossible either way. Rittenhouse trial showed some interesting divisions in US.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#54

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

motohagiography wrote: post #47

> The point of pragmatism is that a philosophical problem or distinction is only real to the extent that it has consequences—and those consequences are, in fact, the meaning of the problem or distinction. Dissolving those questions, casting doubt on the existence of any such consequences, was a frequent move by James and Dewey and a favorite move of Rorty’s. It reads like an argument technique and not a tool for illu…

>>> Personally, I think secular philosophers were tricked into giving up the one tool or razor that would have kept them from drowning in the hall of mirrors flooded with bullshit that their field has become, and that is the question, "is this philosophy, ideology, or critical theory designed to deceive and subordinate us to others, and if so, who, how, and to what end?" ... If you just take a cryptanalyst or a hackers mindset to it and ask, "am I being deceieved?" the whole secular dialectic materialist edifice crumbles. I would argue that this question is also necessarily theistic, as it presupposes truth, and a belief in truth is proof of a belief in something divine by which truth can be measured or compared. That is how fragile this stuff is.

This probably one of the most insightful things I have read on HN in a good while in terms of dealing with bs, which seems to be a staple of the era we live in. Sometimes all it takes is to question the motive of the message to peel the onion.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#55

Post by slibhb »

I like Rorty because he writes clearly. Don't agree with him about anything though.

It's worth noting that Rorty's pragmatism is not C.S. Peirce's pragmatism (Peirce repudiated James in his lifetime). Skeptical philosophy is not new (article makes it seem like it is). Also, for someone who "abandoned philosophy" (and truth...), Rorty sure spent a lot of time arguing about it.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#56

Post by jes »

goodpoint wrote: post #13
skrebbel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popper at least has the decency to call it a paradox. This quote fully assumes that anyone that does not agree with the author on everything is intolerant and deserves to be excluded. I have a hard time imagining that that's what Popper meant.

The "paradox" is only that people incorrectly assume that an inclusive society accepts all sort of behaviors. It is in no way a real paradox.

I thought all paradoxes were based on incorrect assumptions of one kind or another.

What makes one paradox real while another is not?

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#57

Post by cik2e »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #53
mensetmanusman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly this is the top article on The Atlantic at the moment: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universiti... It’s an interesting trend where suddenly the universities are not only trying to find the truth, but apparently they have a monopoly on it.

I checked my IL university out of sheer curiosity, but in that case there was no official statements of any kind. Local student paper covered it with mild bias towards racial inequities, but still within the parameters of a neutral tone. Is it possible that Atlantic is citing CA university as an example that just happens to be an outlier? I don't think it is impossible either way. Rittenhouse trial showed some intere…

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/11/must-see-list-colle...

This is a sampling of some of the statements issued by colleges and universities in response to the Rittenhouse verdict. Lot of prominent names on the list including Columbia, NYU and Stanford.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#58

Post by mindslight »

Jensson wrote: post #18
sokoloff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. If the parents are concerned about the book being part of the curriculum because the author is black, Jewish, homosexual, or any ‘other’ (rather than on the contents of the book), it seems to be a fairly accurate assumption. “Look, we literally can’t force your child to do anything. If they prefer to sit non-disruptively and receive a zero in that part of the curriculum, that works for us.”

Often it happens like this: Teacher: Your kid needs to read a book by a black author. Parent: Why do my kid need to read a book by a black author? I don't think that is a good way to pick books. Teacher: So you say you refuse to let your kid read any books by black people? Stop being such a bigoted racist! Society isn't tolerant enough to tolerate people like you!

You're bashing a strawman. I don't doubt your sincerity (as I was of a similar perspective when subject to this), but it is still ultimately a strawman. Because what "Black author" actually means is picking books written from the perspective of the Black community. Which to a parent or student not familiar with that culture, of course feels foreign and unnecessary. It also doesn't help that analysis of such books inevitably focuses on race relations (tedious social science), because that's where it crops up. But if education should aim to encompass the entirety of American culture, of which the Black community was and is still a significant part of, then this type of thing is probably the best we can do despite it seeming trite and forced. Quick: name a historical Black scientist who didn't work with peanuts.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#59

Post by 0x4d464d48 »

Aurelius3 wrote: post #6
0x4d464d48 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

An idea only worthy of medieval scholasticism. I would hope that as a society we have evolved from such a war like perspective on education, as if the student and the teacher are at odds and the teacher must triumph over the students in a final "educational" victory, when in reality the ideas are simply hamfisted and pushed onto the student, while no true learning or discussion exists.

"An idea only worthy of medieval scholasticism."

If that were so there wouldn't need to be education in the first place.

Change comes kit and parcel with learning and experience. Just learning _how to learn_ to truly grasp arcane and rigid topics is difficult in it's own right. E.g. learning to challenge your own intuition and recognizing when you're using heuristics to take cognitive shortcuts.

Buffing out the rough edges to ones thinking and practice of a skill is exactly what education is designed to do which is why I find Rorty's writing here lazy and uninteresting. The question of "how much education should be required to function in a society and what should its content be" is more than fair. Its the tone of thos piece as if the discovery of education presenting a friction point for others is profound and paradoxical which I find vapid.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#60

Post by Nemrod67 »

motohagiography wrote: post #47

> The point of pragmatism is that a philosophical problem or distinction is only real to the extent that it has consequences—and those consequences are, in fact, the meaning of the problem or distinction. Dissolving those questions, casting doubt on the existence of any such consequences, was a frequent move by James and Dewey and a favorite move of Rorty’s. It reads like an argument technique and not a tool for illu…

"the logic of an idea, where when you project it on something, the reflection doesn't illuminate the object so much as reinforce the underlying idea itself as a lens."

The shape of the tool is as important as the shape of the material, and that is technology.

Maybe there is real engineering/science/philosophy to be made there, but I guess it might become the ITER/LHC of philosophy if attempted.

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