It's Not All In Your Head • Hacker News Board

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#51

Post by bena » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

smeej wrote: post #26

I think doctors aggravate this problem of people believing they're ill even when the clinical evidence doesn't support it. I can't tell you how many doctors I've had tell me, explicitly, within 15 minutes of having met me that they know my body, symptoms, and experience better than I do. It used to come much later in the process, after I'd spent months following their instructions to the letter and having my symptoms…

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do.

Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works. I drive a Civic, it doesn't make me a mechanic.

Diagnosis is tricky. Especially in a system as complicated and interconnected as the human body. People often have a bad tendency to misattribute effects to recent events.

And let's say your conjecture of why they dismiss you is true. That it's because everyone else is an idiot and they're not accustomed to dealing with the brilliance that is you. Everyone thinks like that. Everyone thinks they're the bright shining star who knows medicine better than the doctor. You were not the first person and you won't be the last who walks in with reams of printed out papers on the very thing they're sure is the problem.

They have no way of knowing if you actually know what you're talking about unless they put in the work of figuring out what's up with you. So yes, you could be right, but you could also be wrong. And the work is the same either way.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#52

Post by twobitshifter » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

smeej wrote: post #26

I think doctors aggravate this problem of people believing they're ill even when the clinical evidence doesn't support it. I can't tell you how many doctors I've had tell me, explicitly, within 15 minutes of having met me that they know my body, symptoms, and experience better than I do. It used to come much later in the process, after I'd spent months following their instructions to the letter and having my symptoms…

I find that doctors are somewhat like a frustrating computer form, making patients jump through the procedural hoops to finally get to anything of value. There’s no way around it, patients can tell them what’s been tried before, their family history, what else is going on, but they will always defer to the simplest most common condition without fail, and ignore any association. That’s because that’s what they’re trained to do and it will work in many situations. However, when someone has something that is not a simple condition they fail to piece together the multiple conditions and other circumstances which tell them that a nose bleed may be more serious than dry air.

There’s also the complication of overdiagnosis. I’ve had a doctor not refer me to others because he believed that if I am referred to certain doctors and tested, they will find something wrong with me, but that condition may have not been serious and caused many problems, but the treatment could be worse. I don’t think this “ignorance is bliss” philosophy is unique to my doctor.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#53

Post by niea_11 » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

V-2 wrote: post #44

niea_11 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a native english speaker. First time I encountered the word ecumenical in a tv show (Frasier) and understood it in the same way it was used by gp. Maybe it's specific to american english. I checked cambridge dictionary and it confirms that definition : tending to support and encourage unity among different religions Merriam-webster has a similar definition : Worldwide or general in extent, influence, or appli…

"Merriam-webster has a similar definition : Worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application" Yes, but that's the broader understanding, not related to religion. You can even find somewhat bizarre (to my ear at least) examples like "ecumenical meal of German, Italian, and Chinese dishes" , but it's a turn of phrase, and not necessarily applicable in the religious context. In the religious context the very sa…

Maybe you're just focusing on the fact that it's a christian journal. I think the fact that it's a christian journal doesn't mean that the word can't be used in its broader sense in this context.

I wasn't aware of the christian specific meaning of the word before reading your first comment. Thanks

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#54

Post by rajin444 » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #51

smeej wrote: post #26

I think doctors aggravate this problem of people believing they're ill even when the clinical evidence doesn't support it. I can't tell you how many doctors I've had tell me, explicitly, within 15 minutes of having met me that they know my body, symptoms, and experience better than I do. It used to come much later in the process, after I'd spent months following their instructions to the letter and having my symptoms…

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do. Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works. I drive a Civic, it doesn't make me a mechanic. Diagnosis is tricky. Especially in a system as complicated and interconnected as the human body. People often have a bad tendency to misattribute effects to recent events. And let's say your conjecture of why the…

> and the work is the same either way

I think I that’s the issue. Not all doctors are the same. I’ve been to many that just gave me a surface level amount of thought and sent me on my way. I’ve been to others that took time to really dig in and try to solve the problems. People resort to self research because (for whatever reason, some valid) too many doctors are the former.

Operating in a system where regression to the mean is so prevalent rewards doing the bare minimum with the added benefit of generally reducing your liability.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#55

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

smeej wrote: post #26

I think doctors aggravate this problem of people believing they're ill even when the clinical evidence doesn't support it. I can't tell you how many doctors I've had tell me, explicitly, within 15 minutes of having met me that they know my body, symptoms, and experience better than I do. It used to come much later in the process, after I'd spent months following their instructions to the letter and having my symptoms…

I think a corollary to this is that no one will CARE as much about your health than you, even your doctor. It is perhaps scary to realize it fully, but no one is as invested in getting to the root cause of your issues, and no one has as. much intimate information about how it feels/manifests itself etc. than you. I think taken together this surely spells out that you ought to have a much more active role in your care than you may otherwise think to do, especially in situations where those factors may be more pronounced.

I speak from experience. I was born with serious congenital issues which are non-evident from looking at me or a simple examination. Switching doctors, for instance, is quite the ordeal, and it is always a few sessions before I get someone to be "leveled" up to where I need them to.

My parents have a remarkable story related to me being born that ties into this as well. Apparently my mother suffered from severe pain later acknowledged to be polyhydramnios. They went to several doctors, did many ultrasounds, etc. From the first to the forth doctor, she got anything from needing to stress, to rest, to this is normal, etc. But luckily one hinted just slightly that he thought there MIGHT be something, and suggested she go see this other specialist who was at the tail end of his career. Apparently a minute or two into the ultrasound, he apparently mentioned it with utter certainty: It could be one of two things, either anencephaly or esophageal atresia; I'd either be stillborn or would need surgery shortly after birth. Guess there's not much suspense for the reader for which one of these it turned out to be, but I always remember that story -- and my parents relentless pursuit to find someone until they were convinced they had it "right" -- whenever folks bring up searching for medical advice.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#56

Post by mistermann » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #51

smeej wrote: post #26

I think doctors aggravate this problem of people believing they're ill even when the clinical evidence doesn't support it. I can't tell you how many doctors I've had tell me, explicitly, within 15 minutes of having met me that they know my body, symptoms, and experience better than I do. It used to come much later in the process, after I'd spent months following their instructions to the letter and having my symptoms…

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do. Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works. I drive a Civic, it doesn't make me a mechanic. Diagnosis is tricky. Especially in a system as complicated and interconnected as the human body. People often have a bad tendency to misattribute effects to recent events. And let's say your conjecture of why the…

> Everyone thinks like that. Everyone thinks they're the bright shining star who knows medicine better than the doctor.

This seems more truthy than True.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#57

Post by mistermann » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #27

slx26 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem with human imperfection is that you have to be aware of its many faces, because some of them make our societies more miserable. When imperfection affects only yourself as an individual, or those around you only slightly, it doesn't seem like a big problem. And if it's not a big problem, hey, why do we even make a problem of it at all? Right? But it turns out imperfections reach much further. I want…

> I want a society that doesn't let anyone sink, that is built to be resilient, that is in control of human wellness. Who decides what is “sinking”? I don’t mean in the sense of “is a teenager given an iPhone X who wanted a 13 ‘sinking’?” but rather: What if some people have a genuine desire to do something that other people (people who are in charge) have decided is “sinking”? Should we abide the will of the former…

An easy first step would be to simply ask each person if they are content, feel like they are sinking, have any general grievances (or ideas/perspectives) they'd like to share, etc.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#58

Post by mistermann » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

incrudible wrote: post #35

PaulKeeble wrote: post #32

This has happened over and over. Multiple Sclerosis was a psychological disease until we found the cause. Medically unexplained simply means we don't know the cause and a lot of conditions are very hard to diagnose, especially since doctors tend to stop after their first test for the problem fails and they then try the depression route. I am convinced depression will become a physical biological condition that is tre…

> I am convinced depression will become a physical biological condition that is treatable once we investigate its causes. From a materialist perspective, all psychological issues necessarily have a physical manifestation. That doesn't mean it needs to be a specific pathology. Placebos do have a real effect, does that mean there is some hitherto unidentified substance in Placebos, doing all the work? Of course not. Th…

> Nevertheless, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it

An interesting psychological phenomenon in its own right, the human mind's ability to know (or, inability to not know) the future.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#59

Post by bena » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #56

bena wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do. Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works. I drive a Civic, it doesn't make me a mechanic. Diagnosis is tricky. Especially in a system as complicated and interconnected as the human body. People often have a bad tendency to misattribute effects to recent events. And let's say your conjecture of why the…

> Everyone thinks like that. Everyone thinks they're the bright shining star who knows medicine better than the doctor. This seems more truthy than True.

It may be an exaggeration for effect, but in any walk-in clinic, you're going to get at least one of those a day.

Re: It's Not All In Your Head

#60

Post by RobertRoberts » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #51

smeej wrote: post #26

I think doctors aggravate this problem of people believing they're ill even when the clinical evidence doesn't support it. I can't tell you how many doctors I've had tell me, explicitly, within 15 minutes of having met me that they know my body, symptoms, and experience better than I do. It used to come much later in the process, after I'd spent months following their instructions to the letter and having my symptoms…

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do. Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works. I drive a Civic, it doesn't make me a mechanic. Diagnosis is tricky. Especially in a system as complicated and interconnected as the human body. People often have a bad tendency to misattribute effects to recent events. And let's say your conjecture of why the…

An old guy once told me how veterinarians were often better doctors than medical doctors because their patients couldn't confuse the diagnosis with bad input.

But, I've also met simply belligerent doctors before, that simply couldn't be wrong no matter what the evidence said...

There's human error on both sides to take into account.