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Without parental leave I might be dead

nytimes.com

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Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#51

Post by SaintGhurka »

wastedhours wrote: post #11
bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

I can think of a few reasons. Foremost is they feel threatened by the prospect of their employer realizing that they're not irreplaceable. Also they may love their project and want to be there for the next phase. Or maybe they just figure that their employer would be hurt by their absence and they'd feel guilty about.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#52

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time.

That's why many European countries are progressing towards giving fathers the same leave as mothers, and making it mandatory for both (e.g. in Spain mothers used to have much more leave than fathers, but they progressively increased the leave for fathers while also making things more inflexible - fathers used to be able to "give" their days to mothers, but that no longer works, and both must take at least six weeks mandatorily).

I don't think there is a clear-cut optimal solution for the problem and every solution has pros and cons. For example, mandatory equal leave for both means losing flexibility (and there are biological arguments that mothers need more leave). But I think it's a reasonable compromise to mitigate discrimination and bias.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#53

Post by TimPC »

wastedhours wrote: post #11
bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

In most countries it’s not fully paid but a fractional pay setup for paternity leave. Some good companies top the benefit up to 75% of base pay. But bonus and stock are challenges. For many people being on paternity leave they earn 40% of total compensation which may be part of the reason many dads go back early.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#54

Post by aerosmile »

wastedhours wrote: post #11
bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

I think you might be touching on a taboo that nobody will ever admit publicly: having a baby is no walk in the park, and in comparison sitting in a cubicle and answering a few emails can seem like a massive upgrade.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#55

Post by speedgoose »

bko wrote: post #32
speedgoose wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. There's no clear solutions Your argument makes me think about this satiric article : https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na... I live in a country where it's exactly what we do, and it's fine. I took a 7 months paid parental leave as a dad recently and my company congratulated me for the birth.

Again, saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. That's like saying why are incomes in Mexico so much lower than the US? Just do what the US does. In fact, Mexico has 12 weeks. And Greece has 40. I'd rather be a parent in the US than Greece or Mexico. Policies don't exist in a vacuum.

Why US can't have better parental leave policies when Greece, France, or Mexico can?

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#56

Post by endisneigh »

nix23 wrote: post #34
endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

Not sure why it works (parental leave and universal health care) in the rest of the world but ~cannot not work in the US. Maybe the US is so focused on being "pure capitalist" that you forgot the peoples who are part of the system?

It works in other countries by having higher tax rates, lower incomes, smaller populations and less wealth inequality.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#57

Post by Hamuko »

nix23 wrote: post #39
Freak_NL wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'America' can theoretically mean either the US or the two continents of the Americas depending on the context, but a US newspaper will invariably use 'America' to mean 'The United States of America'. In fact most people proficient in English (second language learners included) will expect that 'America' means the USA. Surely you're not hearing this for the first time? Anyone who wishes to reference the continents ten…

>but a US newspaper will invariably use 'America' to mean 'The United States of America'. Yeah that's just plain wrong, but speaks for the "quality" of such News Papers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#58

Post by nix23 »

ilikehurdles wrote: post #44
nix23 wrote: post #15

>But if you are a person in America who has given birth or knows someone who has given birth, this is just a summary of a sobering and absolutely barbaric reality. It's just the US, not america, one writing for nytimes should know the difference https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/brazil/healthcare/pregnancy... >>Brazil...In 2008, maternity leave was extended from 120 to 180 days https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl…

Consider looking up the definition of “America”. The first one in dictionaries I just checked (Oxford and Cambridge) references the country, The United States. I’m well aware of what the Americas are, but I’ve never once heard a speaker of American English use the singular form of the noun to refer to the collection of continents. edit: Since your reply has been rightfully flagged, read the first line of the definiti…

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/america

noun

United States.

North America.

South America.

Also called the Americas. North and South America, considered together.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#59

Post by bko »

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

> Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasonable objection to not having it.

Giving a special benefit that will for the most part only be exercised by women discourages hiring women. You can still think its worth it, but don't pretend like you're baffled by anyone who would object or question how this impacts women.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#60

Post by endisneigh »

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

Who is forcing women back to work?
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