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Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

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Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#51

Post by giansegato »

hutzlibu wrote: post #48
stef25 wrote: post #15

Slightly OT - Isn't it obvious that NSO must be able to control every "copy" of Pegasus it sells? They wouldn't sell it unless they were absolutely sure it wouldn't be used against its own people and they have no problem selling to their arch enemies. NSO's defense has always been "we just sell the tech and can't be held responsible for what our clients do with it" (this was clear from the Darknet Diaries episode). I…

"They wouldn't sell it unless they were absolutely sure it wouldn't be used against its own people and they have no problem selling to their arch enemies." I do not follow that logic. They do not have to control every instance of their software, to defend against it. I certainly would not try to hack someone with their own tools. I would just assume they spot it easily and exchange the favour.

I believe the OP was referring to the state of Israel, more in the sense that Israel wouldn't grant permission to sell a certain technology without being sure it cannot be wielded against its people.

I think it's a sound argument, even if speculative.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#53

Post by bawolff »

skinkestek wrote: post #20
DeathArrow wrote: post #2

Can someone explain the strong ties between US and Israel, and why US stands behind Israel, no matter what?

A more instructive question might be (warning: this is meant to get people thinking, but at least I'll be straight forward about it): Why does nobody else follow up on the UN resolution from 1948? (Just like in the case of India / Pakistan UN decided to divide the area into two parts, one for Jews, one for Arabs.) I can also ask: why does so few other support the single somewhat functioning democracy in the region? T…

If there was too much bad blood to make that work in 1948, i'm not sure how adding 74 years of additional bad blood will make it any more likely.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#54

Post by hutzlibu »

giansegato wrote: post #51
hutzlibu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They wouldn't sell it unless they were absolutely sure it wouldn't be used against its own people and they have no problem selling to their arch enemies." I do not follow that logic. They do not have to control every instance of their software, to defend against it. I certainly would not try to hack someone with their own tools. I would just assume they spot it easily and exchange the favour.

I believe the OP was referring to the state of Israel, more in the sense that Israel wouldn't grant permission to sell a certain technology without being sure it cannot be wielded against its people. I think it's a sound argument, even if speculative.

You can never be sure with any weapon you made, that it will not be eventually be used against you. But a fine grained hacking tool has a very unique fingerprint and working style, you could defend against much more easier, if it was you who build it all.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#55

Post by vadfa »

Leparamour wrote: post #34
raxxorrax wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you would if you don't rely on vulgarism, so please shoot.

> I don't think you would if you don't rely on vulgarism, so please shoot. Define vulgarism in this context? The non-PC answer would be ethnic nepotism and corrupting influence through AIPAC and ADL. Jews are heavily overrepresented throughout every circle of power and influence (media, academia, business, politics) and trying to reign in Israel would mean going against that entrenched jewish power block which any pr…

Thanks. This is what I meant. I didn't make my point because, at least to me, this is clear and well known, so I dismiss anybody who says not to know it as disingeniuous.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#56

Post by Debug_Overload »

Vervious wrote: post #13

To be fair, it is quite murky to what extent groups like Al-Haq are associated with the PFLP (which, with its history of aircraft hijackings and suicide bombings, is undoubtedly a terrorist group). There is plenty of purported evidence of financial and personnel links out there, and I really doubt HN is the right forum to decide either way (unless someone is an expert).

What evidence is "out there"? So far, there's no evidence, from what is being reported by legitimate news agencies who saw the supposed evidence. Example: https://apnews.com/article/business-europe-middle-east-israe...

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#57

Post by Quanttek »

Vervious wrote: post #13

To be fair, it is quite murky to what extent groups like Al-Haq are associated with the PFLP (which, with its history of aircraft hijackings and suicide bombings, is undoubtedly a terrorist group). There is plenty of purported evidence of financial and personnel links out there, and I really doubt HN is the right forum to decide either way (unless someone is an expert).

This is undoubtedly false. Speaking of "purported evidence" when there is literally no credible evidence submitted by the Israeli government for these allegations is misleading at best. Their whole case rests on the testimony of two Palestinian accountants, likely attained by torture, that worked for two organizations that were not included in the list of six [1]. They merely state it is "general knowledge" that these orgs are funneling money to PFLP without providing any evidence. These testimonies have been already partially refuted by public information. Multiple European governments and a large range of reputable international human rights organizations, incl HRW and Amnesty, have rejected the Israeli allegations as baseless and unsupported. These organizations are highly reputable and been supported for years by the EU, uk and other reputable international donors.

They are targeted for their role in opposing the Israeli occupation and human rights violations and, in the case of Al-Haq, likely targeted for their role in the ICC investigation.

[1] https://www.972mag.com/shin-bet-dossier-palestinian-ngos/

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#58

Post by Quanttek »

bawolff wrote: post #40
DeathArrow wrote: post #2

Can someone explain the strong ties between US and Israel, and why US stands behind Israel, no matter what?

Geopolitically they both hate iran. Culturally both are fairly similar - both are "western"-style democracies (e.g. representative democracies with constitutions that value rule of law, independent judiciary, etc) And, the following might be controversial - but many of americas strategic allies do much worse shit than israel, they just get called out on it less. Hell, Saudi arabia is literally murdering people in emb…

it'd also be good to mention that there exists a strong, largely right-wing and evangelical, pro-Israeli lobby in the US that make it politically very costly to not demonstrate unequivocal support

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#59

Post by macinjosh »

stef25 wrote: post #15

Slightly OT - Isn't it obvious that NSO must be able to control every "copy" of Pegasus it sells? They wouldn't sell it unless they were absolutely sure it wouldn't be used against its own people and they have no problem selling to their arch enemies. NSO's defense has always been "we just sell the tech and can't be held responsible for what our clients do with it" (this was clear from the Darknet Diaries episode). I…

My assumption is that what they have full control over is the admin/CRUD interface that is on top of the database that their malware is feeding. They tightly control the access to that data which is probably encrypted on the target device. That admin interface probably also is where the targeting is done so they could easily put anything they don't want targeted behind a disallow-list.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#60

Post by _djo_ »

pmyteh wrote: post #23
ktownsend wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, this hasn't always been the case, and the US were actively opposed to Israel's covert Nuclear program, for example, which was built with French support against the wishes of the US government at the time. The world has change significantly since then, including the French and American governments alignment of interests and weighing to pros and cons. I'm sure other people here can provide more nuance tha…

I agree that it's mostly interests rather than electoral politics, though there's a certain amount of the latter as well (and Israel have invested heavily in public diplomacy programmes to try to keep their stock high in that regard). It's worth noting that one of the other closest allies of the US/UK in the region is Saudi Arabia, who nobody would describe as 'politically moderate' or close in values.

It's not just the US and UK supporting Saudi Arabia (and other Middle Eastern dictatorships like the UAE), but pretty much all of the EU as well. Look at the sort of military tech they're able to get quite easily from Germany (despite the occasional temporary freeze after bad press, later quietly lifted), France, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc.

It's all geopolitics in the end, and Saudi Arabia not only has influence by virtue of controlling so much of the world's energy supply but because it's a relatively stable and consistent power and its regional aims are in line with the US and Europe's desired strategic outcomes.

There isn't a single European government that would rather Saudi Arabia be a democratic country right now.

Russia, China, and others aren't any different.

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