Live data from Hacker News

Crypto Cities

vitalik.ca

51–55 of 55 posts

Re: Crypto Cities

#51
post #35
post #7

I think I finally "get" crypto. This article made me see the light. Crypto is about secession - a techno-anarchy. Decentralized governance with a self-managed currency is effectively creating a new city-state. To be honest, the idea of the United States collapsing into a collection of Crypto City-States doesn't sound too bad. Better than a Mad Max scenario.

While his article uses the word "city", I think this is entirely misleading. It would be more accurate to describe the unit of organization that it empowers as a "gang". ...an "organized semi-anonymous gang". ...and this is why it's very apt at developing organized crime. Now, to a certain degree, a "gang" that is scalable enough, profitable enough, and efficient enough - could indeed carve out a geographical territo…

> but there is one thing I will say. Some generation in the future might look back at our problems with "democracy" and the issues we have with one-man-one-vote, and laugh because the notion of humans having equal votes is a long gone memory. The crypto-hierarchy won't care about anything other than your "stake".

The CityDAO example Vitalik gives uses a one person/one vote system.

Crypto’s not inherently about replacing democracy. A lot of it is about experimenting with varied rule systems that our existing democracies are otherwise incapable of changing. Like shaping our rules for the commons more explicitly in order to nudge things in a better direction. The article points out the misaligned incentives between land owners, residents, and the city collective: land owners want to restrict supply to make their land more valuable, but this restricts growth of the city. For many, crypto is the biggest hope not for building some anarcho utopia, but just for experimenting with tweaks that might better align the incentives for everyone within a city. e.g. put all the land in a city inside a trust and replace land ownership with a share of that trust: now land owners don’t want to increase their tiny plot by restricting supply: they want to increase the whole pie, which can better be done by investing instead of speculating.

It’s hard to believe our cities today have all found their perfect form. Crypto gives you the tools to more rapidly diversify these systems, in the hope of finding better forms, faster.

Re: Crypto Cities

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since "blockchain" is already a very stretched term, I think Cert Transparency log can be classified as a blockchain.

I can’t find it now, I remember the CT announcement posts explicitly calling it out as “not a blockchain”. The CloudFlare announcement also makes fun of it: > Certificate Transparency brings accountability to the web PKI using a technology called a blockchain an append-only public ledger, an ordered list. Crypto is really good at co-opting existing terms (crypto, Web3 for eg) and we shouldn’t let it go the other way…

"Blockchain" became a term when people started riding on Bitcoin hype to push their own scamcoins. So, on one hand there was "there's not just Bitcoin, there's an entire Blockchain Space" theme, but on another — everyone saw "blockchain" as a giant ponzi operation. Also, there are people who are fixated on proof-of-work as something evil, so that's also why CT was saying "this is not a blockchain".

Re: Crypto Cities

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in those cases there could be censorship and manipulation you're not aware of.

Of course, but a city-scale crypto would be centralized anyway: it couldn't be PoW because a 51% attack is way too easy, and in a PoS scheme, the city council (or their technical support company) would almost certainly keep the majority of stakes for themselves.

They would most likely be ERC-20 tokens built on the ethereum chain. So you inherit the security of the main chain.

Also, they don't necessarily need to be centralized. The currency could be run via a DAO and changes to the currency could be voted on.

Re: Crypto Cities

#54
post #7

I think I finally "get" crypto. This article made me see the light. Crypto is about secession - a techno-anarchy. Decentralized governance with a self-managed currency is effectively creating a new city-state. To be honest, the idea of the United States collapsing into a collection of Crypto City-States doesn't sound too bad. Better than a Mad Max scenario.

Yep it has its origins in the cypherpunk movement which is anarchist.

If you're interested you might want to check out projects like Aragon (https://aragon.org/) to get a glimpse of how this type of thing could work.

I imagine far in the future you'd be a member of one or more DAOs governed by some sort of smart-contract based system. These groups could use tools like Aragon or w/e to vote, hold court, etc.

Re: Crypto Cities

#55

This (along with other posts from Vitalik) keep ignoring any solutions that don’t require blockchain. As an example, he writes: > Certificates, for example cryptographic proofs that some particular individual is a resident of the city, could be done on-chain for added verifiability and security (eg. if such certificates are issued on-chain, it would become obvious if a large number of false certificates are issued).…

Lots of things "don't need" to be written in python, but they're written in python anyway. I expect a lot of blockchain institutional use cases will take a similar route: sure, theoretically they could use some standardized federated solution, but in practice blockchain tx fees will become low enough through layer-2s to be negligible and that's where all the infrastructure to help users verify what's going on, and us…

> Lots of things "don't need" to be written in python, but they're written in python anyway.

This is a weak argument. Many things shouldn't be written in python, because it would the wrong tool for the job. Networking libraries that require bare metal performance, high assurance systems that are easier to write in strongly typed languages.

Block chains solve untrusted writing in the presence of byzantine faults. Not all applications require this. Most don't.

> Like... why _not_ dump Merkle roots on-chain?

Because the data isn't merkelized?

Post reply on HN