Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back • Hacker News Board

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#51

Post by Misdicorl » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #49

Misdicorl wrote: post #32

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

You can do it today with other species. We are lucky to still be surrounded by all kinds of animals: mammals, birds, and even insects. Of course, in order to talk, you have to spend a lot of time listening first. And what they say cannot often be translated to human talk. In order to make friends, you have to give first. Our society teaches us to stay away from nature and leave it be, so you have to break past that.…

Your point stands, but I want something wholly different from that. I want the equivalent of the LHC for cross species communication. You're telling me to go do some communing with physics, because we've already got some good textbooks on quantum mechanics.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#52

Post by pvaldes » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #23

Hum, is interesting but, trying to talk with sperm whales has its own special type of risks. The whale reply could kill you.

We are talking about being shoot with 230 decibels and this will kill any human diving near the whale. More than 185 Db are lethal. Is a defense system when startled.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#53

Post by Misdicorl » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #50

Misdicorl wrote: post #32

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

Brain size may not necessarily correlate with intelligence because it isn't the number of neurons, it's the organization and optimization of them. Just like we make much more powerful CPU chips in the same volume of silicon as before. And it could be that it just isn't necessary for whales to optimize brain density, like it is for humans and crows.

Agreed! But afaik the neuron process "node" across species is not so different. The relevant metaphor I would think is humans have pcie and a large register count while many (all?) others are still on pata and register starved. Maybe a real biologist can come in with more facts and less bad metaphors

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#54

Post by throwaway05112 » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #44

quotha wrote: post #5

Guarantee they just want us to shut the fuck up.

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it repeatedly, and we're hoping for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please refrain from knee-jerk reactions to short comments containing "bad words".

The comment is actually substantive if you think about it for a second. Heuristics are right most of the time until they aren't.

Also see pg essay "Succinctness is Power": http://www.paulgraham.com/power.html

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#55

Post by spoonjim » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

Gosh why can’t we leave them alone. This is like impersonating someone’s spouse with a deepfaked voice and then having an intimate conversation with them.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#56

Post by blacksmith_tb » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

Misdicorl wrote: post #40

klipt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their oral histories must be incredible. Everything was idyllic in the before times. Then the human ships arrived and ruined everything. Some of them killed us. Others ignored us but polluted the ocean with noise so we couldn't hear each other's whale songs anymore.

Maybe! But I find that an awfully self centered view. I imagine humans (boats?) will play a (perhaps significant) aspect in their vision of the world. But I'd be surprised if it was any bigger than e.g. malaria is for humans.

I would say that's lowballing it considerably[1]. Whaling nearly drove sperm whales to extinction until they were protected in the 1970s.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Relationship_with_...

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#57

Post by jd115 » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #43

ceejayoz wrote: post #2

Whale: “Hey, I found some fish.” Whale Eliza: “Interesting. How does that make you feel? Whale: “What the fuck?”

Not sure if it's the case with whales, bit as far as I know there is no recorded use of questions in the animal kingdom - all communication seems to be enunciative, or orders. Questions are exclusive to humans...

This is because humans are the only living thing which feels inadequate enough to ask questions. No other creature feels like it lacks knowledge.

And yes, I'll take it a step further: the reason science glorifies questions is because science is human beings systematically mass-hypnotising each other into greater and greater inadequacy.

You ever notice how you never get enough answers in science? Every "answer" you get scientifically only seems to bring about more and more questions? We call it "scientific curiosity" and pretend to marvel at it, but come on, how shallow is that.

What every other living creature (and every newborn human) intrinsically knows is that it knows all it needs to know. And that whenever it needs to know more, it will know it. That's it. There is no scientific process, no philosophical inquiries, no questioning. No doubt. No lack.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#58

Post by rsj_hn » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

jd115 wrote: post #57

torben-friis wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it's the case with whales, bit as far as I know there is no recorded use of questions in the animal kingdom - all communication seems to be enunciative, or orders. Questions are exclusive to humans...

This is because humans are the only living thing which feels inadequate enough to ask questions. No other creature feels like it lacks knowledge. And yes, I'll take it a step further: the reason science glorifies questions is because science is human beings systematically mass-hypnotising each other into greater and greater inadequacy. You ever notice how you never get enough answers in science? Every "answer" you ge…

You must not have a dog waiting for you when you come home late

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#59

Post by PicassoCTs » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

Misdicorl wrote: post #32

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

They will sing us the song of the great holocaust of the 1800s, of the day the metal surface whales turned the skies red and nothing could save them.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#60

Post by jd115 » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #58

jd115 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because humans are the only living thing which feels inadequate enough to ask questions. No other creature feels like it lacks knowledge. And yes, I'll take it a step further: the reason science glorifies questions is because science is human beings systematically mass-hypnotising each other into greater and greater inadequacy. You ever notice how you never get enough answers in science? Every "answer" you ge…

You must not have a dog waiting for you when you come home late

Yes, great point - but this is only because the animals we domesticate have been brainwashed by us humans into feeling (almost, but never quite) as inadequate as we do.