A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale • Hacker News Board

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#51

Post by iammisc » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

brodouevencode wrote: post #17

silexia wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have twin two year olds. Early on, I had to do a significant amount of work because there is two of them. But even with that work helping my wife, I still did not need any parental leave. Newborns are easy for a father... Just change the diaper, feed a bottle, and comfort them. Now that my kids are two years old, I need to spend more time with them teaching them things and I am sure that will grow. Maybe mothers sh…

I think women should get more leave than what has been traditionally given. If a child is not properly socialized by the age of four, good luck after that. Women are just naturally better at doing that. Now that my kids are older I spend a lot more time with them than when they were too young for school. All of them are very good gardeners - theyve been helping me in the garden since they were old enough to move arou…

> If a child is not properly socialized by the age of four, good luck after that. Women are just naturally better at doing that.

I respectfully disagree. Men are better at socializing children. Children without fathers have lower levels of empathy, more likely to engage in anti-social behavior, and more likely to be narcissists.

Mothers indulge children, and care for them, which is great, but leads to self-centeredness. Fathers set boundaries, enforce rules, and stop playing with children when they get mean. Many traditional cultures see the father's role as introducing children to the outside world and teaching them their place in it, and I believe this is backed by empirical data.

[1] https://www.fox26houston.com/houstons-morning-show/fathers-i...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2001/apr/05/crime.penal

Mothers are certainly better at providing for the immediate physical and emotional needs for children.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#52

Post by cvhashim » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

brodouevencode wrote: post #11

The rhetoric is harsh, but I can sympathize with him. I would rather my children see how hard I work (it never went unnoticed), and now that they are older I happily include them in on what I do. But those early years should be dedicated to learning how to be social and nice - things women are better at than men on average. Traditionally men have been the workers, women have been the caregivers. This model has worked…

I wish I spent more time with my dad growing up. He loved his work. I’m sure he believed in his mind he was working hard for his family. If I ever have children, I’ll make sure to be there for them.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#53

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

jusa92pl wrote: post #37

I followed this on Twitter and think some clarification is in order. 1 - Joe immediately regretted using the word "loser" https://twitter.com/JTLonsdale/status/1453420638832635904 2 - The headline is missing "in an important position." Joe's statement applies to the top leaders of a company/country, not everyone. He's saying people like the CEOs/SVPs of a company, or the presidents/cabinet members of a country, shoul…

The challenge there is that the rest of the org will look to leadership to take cues for what is normalized, what is rewarded, what do the decision-makers value, etc. And if you, as a leader, are not willing and able to take 6 months off for paternity leave, the rest of the organization will take home the message that it is not acceptable for them to take 6 months off. It's the same reason that good leaders avoid sending e-mails or visibly working after hours: if they do it, the message to the org will be that everyone has to do it, and then you burn out your people.

In a well-functioning organization, you (as a leader) should be developing leaders underneath you in all the time that you are not on paternity leave. That way, when you do have a family commitment, they can step into your position and the organization is just fine. This is handy for a lot of reasons other than paternity leave: it increases your bus number, it generates a deep leadership bench in case the organization wants to take on additional initiatives, and it reinforces the idea that leadership is a role and not a person, such that many potential leaders could step into the role and do it well.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#54

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #38

Another way to look at this is anyone who can take that much leave is absolutely privilege compared to typical working class people. Back when I was working minimum wage or near minimum wage it was rare to even see women take more than a month off. Many new fathers would only take one or two days. So at least with my working class background this is a couple of privileged people, from an extremely privileged class co…

Typical for the USA but not for the EU.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#55

Post by iammisc » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #20

brodouevencode wrote: post #11

The rhetoric is harsh, but I can sympathize with him. I would rather my children see how hard I work (it never went unnoticed), and now that they are older I happily include them in on what I do. But those early years should be dedicated to learning how to be social and nice - things women are better at than men on average. Traditionally men have been the workers, women have been the caregivers. This model has worked…

We are talking about the first 6 months (I don't think your 6 month old will appreciate how much you were working that first 6 months). I'm no history major but I am pretty sure woman have been as much the workers as men (think the gather component of hunter/gatherer).

I'm not a history major, but I'm pretty sure the entire concept of parental leave is completely alien to all of history. Historically, the majority of people were unemployed and worked for themselves on their own farm / craft. Having children just meant doing farm work / artisanship with your children around, not taking a break.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#56

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #35

The outrage cycle is strong with this one. Is this what social media amplifies? Some dude who makes a statement that is clearly atypical gets hyper focused on while internet “pundits” scream at each other about it? It’s clearly an extreme statement, made with the perfect intent to stoke outrage, that gets amplified, then Fortune writes an article and it gets linked on HN. Whatever happens to “wow that’s a dumb statem…

I am some dude. Perhaps you are some dude. Joe Lonsdale and Joe Rogan (in the same Twitter discussion) are not mere dudes — they are opinion leaders. People respect the opinions of successful founders, and hence PG is quoted all the time. Joe Rogan makes insane money simply by discussing his opinions.

You characterize the statement about paternity leave as dumb and clearly atypical, but is it? Paternity leave still appears to be an unpopular idea in the US, or else why hasn't the US moved towards the EU direction?

IMO this tweet was calculated not just for outrage but also for rallying. Rallying is more important than outrage.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#57

Post by runjake » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Beware of men who soapbox about masculinity. Often, they lack confidence and are doing it as a result of their own personal struggles with masculinity.

If you value masculinity, look for the "quiet professional" type role models. The ones doing masculine things and not posting brags, rants, and videos on YouTube or social media about it. And do[1] your own masculine things[2].

One positive role model I can refer people to is Pat McNamara on YouTube. He's got tons of "masculine cred" (retired Delta Force operator, killer workout regime and work ethic) but is in touch with his feelings, enjoys gardening and bird watching, and is humorously self-deprecating, which I respect tremendously.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pat+mcnamara+ba...

1. If you want to do masculine things. You don't have to. There are a huge variety of people out there and a huge variety of personal and cultural definitions of what being a man, or their particular identified gender, is.

2. My masculine things are BJJ, sewing, cooking (exploring Thai currently), smoking meats, woodworking, not belittling others, and lifting weights. Yours may or may not be different.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#58

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

jowdones wrote: post #47

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she's working from home, why do you think she's doing all the child care? You think he's just sitting around while she both works and cares for the child?

That's what I imagine. Wife cooking and cradling the baby with one hand while the other types on the computer. Husband in armchair smoking a pipe while reading newspaper.

Why? Has your workmate said anything about sitting in an armchair smoking a pipe while reading a newspaper? Have you observed him doing that?

If your workmate is taking a year of paternity leave and his wife is working from home, my assumption is that he'd be the primary caregiver for diapers, holding the baby, putting him down for naps, cleaning up around the house, and his wife would be nursing the baby and possibly sleeping with it (which is basically a full-time job itself in the newborn phase). That was roughly how we divided responsibilities when I was on paternity leave.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#59

Post by jowdones » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #58

jowdones wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I imagine. Wife cooking and cradling the baby with one hand while the other types on the computer. Husband in armchair smoking a pipe while reading newspaper.

Why? Has your workmate said anything about sitting in an armchair smoking a pipe while reading a newspaper? Have you observed him doing that? If your workmate is taking a year of paternity leave and his wife is working from home, my assumption is that he'd be the primary caregiver for diapers, holding the baby, putting him down for naps, cleaning up around the house, and his wife would be nursing the baby and possibl…

Well, doing all those chores would kinda make him... a loser.

Re: A man who takes 6 months of paternity is a loser – Palantir founder Joe Lonsdale

#60

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #45

spamizbad wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, although in my experience the first 6 months of being a dad is less about being a male role model and more focused on supporting mom and making sure the baby is healthy, safe and comfortable.

It's laying the groundwork, though. You can't be a good role model unless your kid trusts you, and that trust starts being built at birth.

If the father isn't there for the first 6 months of child rearing, but the mother, friends, family, and hired nannies are, is it clear that a child will face lifelong repercussions?