and here I am writing a CRUD app with flask :(
Impressive work (2 years working full time knowing that it might never be merged is incredible)
Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
51–60 of 105 posts
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#52It’s down, archive link: https://archive.md/Zb8p2
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#53I think switching the version to 4 is the most viable path. Make the last GILed python 3 an LTS release that interested parties can hold on to, eg. Ubuntu can keep python 3 as a default for a long time. One can always use conda to run multiple versions simultaneously.
You mean Python 4? That would be absolutely insane. Have you already forgotten the 2/3 transition? They aren't making that mistake again.
And yet the popularity of Python exploded during the 2 to 3 transition. As someone who has migrated a few codebases from 2 to 3, I will gladly do it again to 4 if that brings a GILless Python.
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#54> What’s the level of perceived risk that the nogil project will end up not being viable for inclusion in CPython?
(...)
> It all depends on how well the community adapts C extensions so they don’t cause downright crashes of the interpreter. Then, the remaining long tail is community adopting free threads in their applications in a way that is both correct and scales well. Those two are the biggest challenges but we have to be optimistic.
Even if it's 10% of the mess the path py2->py3 was, it still worries me. I hope I'm wrong and it's much less than that (for the fatal cases ATL, and similar/non improved perf for the rest)
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#55I can't help but read all the interjections from the core developers as a strong indication of why all these sorts of things tend to fail on the vine. From Unladen Swallow onward there have been these groups off doing interesting and awesome experiments to try and make Python faster, and they never actually make it into something that Python end-users can use (yes, I know US had shortcomings). This is the work of one…
> really make me wonder if the community as a whole would conclude the same on these critical sorts of decisions which shape the future of the language if they were put forward and not just made by a couple people in a closed meeting. I for one couldn't care less if some proprietary binaries fail on Python 3.11 or so. That's why we keep multiple versions around (at last company, I could only use up to 3.6 because tha…
I agree. If you're doing something so special in your code that nobody is publicly doing it and you're unable to update the code to make it compatible, then don't upgrade. That's the risk you took when coding it. We shouldn't go out on a limb for hypotheticals that cannot be confirmed. Force them to demonstrate an example publicly so all the cards are on the table. Proprietary code is fine and you can still share concepts by extracting out the issues.
Sorry to hear about your demo. Sounds not fun! At least that's in the past :)
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it actually a corporate initiative? The project is hosted on Sam's personal GitHub[1]. [1]: https://github.com/colesbury/nogil
It may not be a Facebook initiative in the corporate strategy sense, but it's definitely a Facebook project , done on Facebook's dime. From the horse's mouth: https://lwn.net/ml/python-dev/CAGr09bRSwfinXNe4acTrpR8bM7nYh...
Would you consider python a Dropbox or google product given that Guido worked for both of those companies on python for close to 15 years?
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#57I think there's a pretty good chance this stuff gets incorporated: "On a personal level, we are impressed by Sam’s work so far and invited him to join the CPython project. I’m happy to report he is interested, and to help him ramp up to become a core developer, I will be mentoring him. Guido and Neil Schemenauer will help me review code for the interpreter bits I’m unfamiliar with."
Embrace, extend, extinguish. Sam will be in for a rude awakening with these people.
This is python, not Microsoft we are talking about
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#58I think there's a pretty good chance this stuff gets incorporated: "On a personal level, we are impressed by Sam’s work so far and invited him to join the CPython project. I’m happy to report he is interested, and to help him ramp up to become a core developer, I will be mentoring him. Guido and Neil Schemenauer will help me review code for the interpreter bits I’m unfamiliar with."
12 references to people in one statement, 5 referring to the post author, 1 reference to social fraternity membership, 1 statement of authority.
I'm not sure if there is a common name for this particular source of discomfort, but that quote definitely contains a lot of it. I'm a historical contributor to the Python source repository, but something about the social structure of the project has changed significantly in recent years that would dissuade me from submitting changes in future. The focus in the statement above no longer feels like it is on the actual productive output of the project itself, and in previous years it wasn't like that, nor needed to be like that.
Reminds me of something like the minutes of a professional schmoozer's business lunch, rather than a technical meeting, or something like that. If you have ever seen a stray engineer at an event like this (or had the misfortune of being that engineer), this feeling probably captures the problem well. Whatever it is, I'd love to see less of it.
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#59I wonder if a midpoint for this sort of work would be if a major distro or several declared they would move to GIL-free Python? System python at least is generally only recommended to be used for system libs, and that's a relatively supportable set. Developers use virtualenv's and their own specific interpreter, but it would certainly move the needle on what language people were by default scripting and thinking in.
This here: "The GIL will still be optionally available as an interpreter startup-time option" seems like a midpoint. Maybe it will even be GIL-by-default for some versions.
Re: Notes from the Meeting on Python GIL Removal Between Python Core and Sam Gross
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
It may not be a Facebook initiative in the corporate strategy sense, but it's definitely a Facebook project , done on Facebook's dime. From the horse's mouth: https://lwn.net/ml/python-dev/CAGr09bRSwfinXNe4acTrpR8bM7nYh...
Would you consider python a Dropbox or google product given that Guido worked for both of those companies on python for close to 15 years?
Any component he soloed while on company time, yes, I would consider that an $employer project (not product, the work is donated under the PSF license and a CLA). We’re talking about ~2 years of paid full time work here.