A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco • Hacker News Board

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#51

Post by paisawalla » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #16

> He blames San Francisco’s woes on a culture of permissive lawlessness and a mistaken view of what constitutes moral policymaking. A frequent critique of those that want to solve the homeless problem by sending in the police to crack heads and send everyone to prison. The main goal here of course being to ensure that the homeless "go away" somewhere out of view. In reality most of the "crimes" that people are wringi…

Obvious solutions like "just give them houses" are discussed in the book, and previous attempts are evaluated. As you might expect, stuffing severely ill people into apartments without addressing the illness results in poor outcomes.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#52

Post by mgummelt » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #3

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

The author argues that housing prices are not a significant factor:

"Throughout it, they emphasized that the homeless were just like you and me, just poorer. Today, many of California’s leading homelessness advocates insist that the current crisis is due mostly to the housing shortage. Homelessness experts and advocates disagree.

'I’ve rarely seen a normal able-bodied able-minded non-drug-using homeless person who’s just down on their luck,” L.A. street doctor Susan Partovi told me. “Of the thousands of people I’ve worked with over 16 years, it’s like one or two people a year. And they’re the easiest to deal with.'” [1]

[1] https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/editorials-for-students/why...

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#53

Post by ProjectArcturis » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

mrobot wrote: post #22

I think the article is implying the answer to the failed 'left' policies is to replace them with more 'right-wing' policies. I've seen bills popping up that involve criminalizing the homeless or making camping illegal except in designated areas [1], [2]. These are really just 'out of sight, out of mind bills'. Homeless will not respond to criminalization of being homeless just as addicted people don't respond to legi…

I'm sympathetic to a leftist solution here, but let's not ignore the reality of what happened when we built huge public housing buildings in the 50s and 60s. They were a failure for everyone involved, and there aren't any easy solutions.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#54

Post by bushbaba » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

tyoma wrote: post #27

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. While I think there is an argument to be made that many of SF's/California's policies are counterproductive (e.g. treating all theft The same thing is happening in Austin. As a liberal city in Texas with relatively homeless-friendly policies, it was been well-documented that many rural areas in Texas are giving their homeless one-way bus tickets to Austin. So we're left with the dilemma that relatively liber…

The $900 felony rule keeps being brought up on HN, but the felony amount for Texas is $2500. Clearly something other than the misdemeanor/felony classification is at play.

San Jose, and the peninsula don’t have nearly as much petty theft or shoplifting crime. And yet the laws are nearly identical. Only difference I can think of is the local community supporting the police.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#55

Post by door103 » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

"A culture of permissive lawlessness"? A studio apartment in San Francisco starts at what, $2k?

> Mr Shellenberger thinks they are on the streets in part because of a “housing-first” approach, which holds out for permanent, individual homes at the expense of building enough temporary accommodation.

So his approach is that San Francisco should have third world-style slums?

The solutions are simple: rent control and public housing. There just isn't political will for these policies: wealthy real estate investors fight them tooth and nail.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#56

Post by ProjectArcturis » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

no_butterscotch wrote: post #39

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

So what should we do? Locking everyone up seems like it would be even more expensive with even worse long-term results.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#57

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:58 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #15

mc32 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. >I think the nation as a whole needs substantially more affordable housing. And San Francisco will never be a place with affordable housing. Modesto, ok. Manteca, ok. Not SF. No one ever thinks, I'm homeless, lemme go to SF and see if I can find something there. It's political. Otherwise you'd see more homeless i…

San Diego does have quite a lot of homeless, but it isn't as concentrated geographically. I'd argue that part of the issue with San Francisco is the concentration of the homeless into a small area. You don't see homeless in Atherton, for example. The wealthy enclaves in the Bay Area have zero problem with pushing the homeless out of their areas into somewhere else. In the Bay Area, there aren't that many "somewhere e…

[deleted]

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#58

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #3

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

[deleted]

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#59

Post by JamesVI » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 2:00 AM UTC

richiezc wrote: post #32

bsder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

San Diego does have quite a lot of homeless, but it isn't as concentrated geographically. I'd argue that part of the issue with San Francisco is the concentration of the homeless into a small area. You don't see homeless in Atherton, for example. The wealthy enclaves in the Bay Area have zero problem with pushing the homeless out of their areas into somewhere else. In the Bay Area, there aren't that many "somewhere e…

I live in SF and while I don't spent a lot of time in Atherton, but homeless is most definitely visible even in the wealthy enclaves. Even before covid there was a small but visible homeless population in downtown Palo Alto (univ ave) and more recently there are tents on the sidewalk in Cupertino just down the street from Apple's spaceship campus. I think it must have become less acceptable to "move them along" durin…

Correct. Atherton isn't a great example. There's literally no downtown, so any homeless people would have to set up camp right outside some (very rich) person's (giant) single family home on a street with no sidewalk. Even in less affluent parts of the Bay Area unhoused people typically cluster in business or industrial districts rather than residential neighborhoods filled with single family homes.

You see unhoused people in downtown Menlo Park, Palo Alto, and Los Altos which are almost as wealthy as Atherton, and there was temporary outrage last year when it was reported that Menlo Park PD had paid for a one-way cab ride for one of the regular unhoused residents up to Pacifica (they claimed that she asked them to get her there so she could get her hair cut by a friend).

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#60

Post by seehafer » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 2:00 AM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #34

tyoma wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $900 felony rule keeps being brought up on HN, but the felony amount for Texas is $2500. Clearly something other than the misdemeanor/felony classification is at play.

Stealing in Texas is a significantly riskier proposition than stealing from someone in California.

Especially burglary. The scariest stories of post-Chesa SF for my money are the home invasion ones when the owners/tenants are present in the home. Burglaries in Texas don’t happen unless the thief is 100% certain nobody is home.