The Married Will Soon Be the Minority • Hacker News Board

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#51

Post by bawolff » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:52 AM UTC

dustintrex wrote: post #40

dutchCourage wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we will have normal social structures again. What do you consider "normal"?

Monogamous marriage between a man and a woman is historically far and away most common social structure around the world, although obviously there is a vast amount of variety.

I'm doubtful of that. Homosexuality was very normalized in the ancient western world, but it looked very different then modern conceptions.

How many people do you know recently that used marriage to secure an economic/political alliance? Pretty common among elites historically, almost unheard of today.

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#52

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

hyperman1 wrote: post #48

A radio interview years ago with a woman from Africa compared African and western mariages. She basically claimed the Western and African view of a mariage was different to the point of incompatibility, and wondered what the hell we were doing. African marriage, according to her, was based on what amounted to economic stability: 2 people share the cost and maintenance burden of a house, food, ... If one partner was i…

>> a woman from Africa compared African and western mariages.

Africa is a big place. That sounds more like west or south Africa. For instance, the north-east (Egypt and the Mediterranean countries) have a much more middle eastern view of the institution. And even within southern Africa, there is great disparity between rich an poor. Much of the economic certainty professed falls away with African people from more wealthy backgrounds. It is likely overinclusive so call these "African" views of marriage, rather they are the views of some particular African economic and social groups. Other groups have other ideas, some of them much more similar to western notions.

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#53

Post by hyperman1 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #52

hyperman1 wrote: post #48

A radio interview years ago with a woman from Africa compared African and western mariages. She basically claimed the Western and African view of a mariage was different to the point of incompatibility, and wondered what the hell we were doing. African marriage, according to her, was based on what amounted to economic stability: 2 people share the cost and maintenance burden of a house, food, ... If one partner was i…

>> a woman from Africa compared African and western mariages. Africa is a big place. That sounds more like west or south Africa. For instance, the north-east (Egypt and the Mediterranean countries) have a much more middle eastern view of the institution. And even within southern Africa, there is great disparity between rich an poor. Much of the economic certainty professed falls away with African people from more wea…

That's probably me simplifying and misremembering.

I heard a random radio interview somewhere in the 1990's as a teenager, started really listening only in the middle of it, and by then the introduction phase was over. I never really knew who the interviewed person was, if she was famous for anything, ... It's just that what she told stuck.

Needless to say: plenty of chance for miscommunications, errors in representation are my own.

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#54

Post by helloworld11 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:06 AM UTC

lancepioch wrote: post #16

gremloni wrote: post #9

Alimony is stupid. Child support without the man having a say in abortion is even more stupid.

Why is alimony stupid? I haven't really heard any good arguments against it.

You don't think the idea of having to support a spouse as if they were incapacitated or a child for years after you've gone your separate ways absurd? In a society where supposedly, both men and women are equal to boot? And the base justification being little more than that you happened to have lived together for a time as partners.

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#55

Post by gnicholas » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:08 AM UTC

I'd highly recommend the Hidden Brain podcast When Did Marriage Become So Hard?. [1]

It goes into detail on how much we expect from our spouses, and how these expectations put pressure on a marriage. Couples who are able to get all of these benefits are super happy, but for many couples it's prudent to realize that historically we've not expected so many things from our spousal relationships. This realization allows couples to adjust their expectations for what a marriage is supposed to provide, and give them permission to have some of their social or other needs met by friends/colleagues/etc.

1: https://www.npr.org/2018/02/12/584531641/when-did-marriage-b...

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#56

Post by bawolff » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:14 AM UTC

My understanding is that the agricultural revolution played a major role in the traditional version monogamous marriage becoming "standard".

Since the industrial revolution the role of marriage and the structure of marriage has been slowly shifting. Most notably to be more equal,but also to be less mandatory

Maybe marriage just makes sense in an agricultural society, and doesn't make sense in an industrialized or knowledge-based society

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#57

Post by dsq » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:45 AM UTC

The family being the only remaining non-transactional long-term social construct in moden society, it is not surprising that both marriage and child bearing are anachronistic and have been falling for the past decades. Eventually, a combination of surrogate childbirth (and perhaps evetually 'true' SF-style in-vitro bottle babies) and professional parenting, either private or State-sponsored, will be the primary way to raise the next generations of producers and consumers. It is sometimes tiring how prophetic British SF writers of the 1930's were.

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#58

Post by stunt » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

I understand why this is happening, but some of it is going to be unfair for women today. Raising a child still has more toll on mothers. They lose job and growth opportunity which has a long lasting impact on their future. They are still under paid comparing to men.

We want to get rid of these traditional contracts, but we are not prepared to make all the necessary changes in the society.

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#59

Post by Dracophoenix » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 9:10 AM UTC

dsq wrote: post #57

The family being the only remaining non-transactional long-term social construct in moden society, it is not surprising that both marriage and child bearing are anachronistic and have been falling for the past decades. Eventually, a combination of surrogate childbirth (and perhaps evetually 'true' SF-style in-vitro bottle babies) and professional parenting, either private or State-sponsored, will be the primary way t…

I disagree with the assertion that family was ever non-transactional. Even the ways families begin, either through monogamous marriage or wedlock, require that one person select (or be arranged to accept) one partner with which to copulate. People engage in a transitional analysis anytime they ask themselves "is it worth it?". And that's more often then you seem to imply.

Aside from that, I agree that Huxley was right

Re: The Married Will Soon Be the Minority

#60

Post by Dracophoenix » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

bobsmooth wrote: post #24

dijit wrote: post #15

My ex wanted to get married and I was keen on the idea. But it is a scary endeavour with no practical upside, high financial cost and absurd legal risk. Why would I get married? Love? You can love without marriage. If marriage is to prove you love someone then I don’t think I want to bother loving anyone.

>no practical upside There's tax incentives and you become each other's medical proxy, among other things. >high financial cost The paperwork is cheap. Weddings are as expensive as you make them. >absurd legal risk That's true, divorces are expensive.

If you're speaking about the United States's the (relatively small) tax gains, they only become advantageous for a marriage between a stay at a non-earning stay at home spouse and a high-earning breadwinner. Any other paring creates a tax penalty.