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Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

jonathanstark.com

51–60 of 75 posts

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#51
post #9

I'm finding myself in a significant minority here, which is always an interesting time to stand back and reflect. I hope this post doesn't come off as a troll; I am genuinely curious where my beliefs diverge from the majority. I cannot understand why Sam's charity raising has raised such an outrage. Here is why. First, what he did was within the bounds of the experiment. Johnathan provided the Starbucks card to be us…

I think most of us thought it was a nice gesture to give coffee to strangers. Sam did not agree with us and decided to stop it.

I do agree that it is within the bounds of the experiment. The experiment proves that Sam is a bully who will spend time and effort to ruin the joy of others for his own personal gain.

The fact that he attempted to donate the money to charity does not justify his actions. If he wanted to he could have just donated $600 without ruining the joy for the rest of us.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#52
post #6
post #3

It's an interesting character study. Jonathan takes the high road and redirects Sam Odio to the public discussion which I think is a great thing to do instead of getting caught up in a personal confrontation. Then Sam Odio responds with: I think you took my olive branch and stomped on it. In the light of what happened, you can say a lot of negative things about Sam Odio, but at least he's consistent.

Hm, I guess a lot can get lost in translation. :( That "olive branch" comment wasn't intended to be negative. I was saddened by his reply. To address your point: I am not looking for a personal confrontation...just wanting to reach out and make sure he's OK.

Also Sam I couldn't help but laugh at your answer to this question on the eBay auction:

> Q: Is this gift card autographed by the original owner?

> A: I'd gladly autograph the card if it increases someone's willingness to donate to Save the Children.

He wants to know if someone has signed it like a credit card, so it is tied to that person's signature... not for your autograph. Sheesh.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#53
post #9

I'm finding myself in a significant minority here, which is always an interesting time to stand back and reflect. I hope this post doesn't come off as a troll; I am genuinely curious where my beliefs diverge from the majority. I cannot understand why Sam's charity raising has raised such an outrage. Here is why. First, what he did was within the bounds of the experiment. Johnathan provided the Starbucks card to be us…

That's why it's called an honor system. It's based on trust. Not on any guarantee that it can't be circumvented. Of course it can. But if you do, I fail to see how that wouldn't make you an a*hole.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#54
The way this is being debated here is quite emotional and superficial, resembling the discussion on Facebook.

As far as I see, there was an open unprotected commons, and some passer-by just took everything to do with it what he wants. You may rightly find this a sad thing, but you shouldn't be too surprised. This is a well known dilemma, there are enough studies dealing with this. There's a reason why copyleft licenses establish a commons protected by copyright law.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#55
post #20
post #9

I'm finding myself in a significant minority here, which is always an interesting time to stand back and reflect. I hope this post doesn't come off as a troll; I am genuinely curious where my beliefs diverge from the majority. I cannot understand why Sam's charity raising has raised such an outrage. Here is why. First, what he did was within the bounds of the experiment. Johnathan provided the Starbucks card to be us…

I think the reason that giving the proceeds to charity is seen as so offensive is because the implied social contract was that people could use the card at Starbucks to buy something and they could contribute back if they felt like it. Even though Sam's intent to donate to charity is noble, the means by which he set out to achieve this lacked nobility. He took advantage of something that was on the honor system and a…

I don't get the nobleness. If he wanted to donate to charity, why didn't he do so with his own money? He basically took other people's money from an honor system, intended for solely different purpose and decided to donate that. How is that noble?

He just decided this honor system is not to his liking and decided to screw it up. That makes ou an a*hole. After all this time, not realizing his own douchebaggery just makes him look like a pretentious douche bag. The worst kind.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what he did was within the bounds of the experiment I still don't understand how this is supposed to make anything okay. The experiment was set up to see how people dealt with a system inherently fueled by some combination of altruism and curiosity. I personally assume this means that, among other things, it is looking at some measure of morality. Thing of it is, you can't really construct an experiment about moralit…

When you're doing an experiment, you want to see what actually happens rather than what would happen if everyone did the "right" thing. Thus, doing the "wrong" thing (that is within the bounds of the experiment) is a "good" thing, because it shows how and where the system fails. Your "secondly" part isn't exactly correct, because the US law is not an experiment that people are voluntarily participating in. Its purpos…

It's tricky, because "experiment" doesn't necessarily mean you're following the scientific method and its levels of rigor.

Some people "experiment" with leaving produce at the side of the road and having a trust based money box for people to pay. If someone takes all of the produce without paying one day, the experimenter isn't necessarily going to analyze it scientifically and be happy at the seeming failure, but instead think "I can't trust people enough - experiment's over."

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#57
What makes me sad is the severe case of analogy fever going around. It's not just this situation, it's everywhere; when people hit a novel ethical challenge it's like it's too hard to confront it on its own terms, and it has to be dragged back down into being "just like" something less interesting. The world is changing in fascinating ways with brand new ideas and challenges to understand, and we're punting to tradition instead of doing them justice.

Well, you know what? Piracy isn't "just like" stealing, nor is it "just like" swapping tapes was in the 80s. Wikileaks isn't "just like" publishing someone's diary, nor is it "just like" the NYT publishing the pentagon papers. And this isn't "just like" Robin Hood, or stealing out of a collection plate, or totalitarianism encroaching on liberty, or a clever publicity stunt, or black hat hacking, or the tragedy of the commons or anything else. It's just... well, it's just like the Jonathan's Card case of 2011.

Analogies aside, did Sam Odio do the wrong thing? I think there are a few important aspects to consider:

What should the donors have reasonably expected would happen with their money and how firm a moral hold do they have on that expectation? I've seen a few people argue that they were essentially throwing the money out the window, but I'm not sure how well that applies. The Starbucks card is more attractive because it's more restricted. Nobody could use it to buy shoes or pay down their mortgage. It was intended for coffee, and I think the people donating expected it to be used for coffee.

So did he wrong the people who donated money? By that definition, yes - but our society tolerates a lot of different kinds of wrong. It's wrong to lie and wrong to stab someone, but only one of those is illegal. If people donate money intending it to be used for charitable coffee, and you use it for a different charitable end, how bad is that? At least, less bad than buying an iPad, more bad than using it for its intended purpose. It obeys the large-scale "paying it forward" end if not the particular means.

The act being wrong from the perspective of the donors doesn't mean it needs to be wrong for everyone, though. Sometimes you can do bad and good in the same action - feeding Ethiopian orphans surely must, by any measure, do more good than giving people coffee. How much bad is justified by how much good? I'm certain that everyone has an answer in them, and probably an uncomfortable one to think about too hard. For me, I think this makes it over the line as enough good to be worth it, but I'm not sure it would if I were more invested in the experiment.

There is an interesting sidenote that I think hasn't been addressed much. Would the reaction have been as bad if he'd bought $600 worth of Starbucks food and given it to homeless people? I suspect not. To me, that suggests that the actual end was less important to most donors than the means. That is, it wasn't a charity effort with a communal coffee card as a side-effect, it was a communal coffee card experiment with charity as a side-effect. Or perhaps the order of those preferences indicates where you stand on the morality of the act.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#58
I have to say that I prefer that this is where the money went rather than what I assumed was happening in that people were just using it for their own personal gain. This conclusion is one which would have been hard to draw before the experiment started, the much more likely cases would have been it working well or flat out abuse.

It would be really interesting to see the same thing but with some way to enforce a limit of say $30 per transaction and no gift cards. From some limited observation of the Twitter feed everything appeared to work well while the balance stayed sub $30 which would have essentially been enforcing the conditions I'm suggesting.

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#59
post #9

I'm finding myself in a significant minority here, which is always an interesting time to stand back and reflect. I hope this post doesn't come off as a troll; I am genuinely curious where my beliefs diverge from the majority. I cannot understand why Sam's charity raising has raised such an outrage. Here is why. First, what he did was within the bounds of the experiment. Johnathan provided the Starbucks card to be us…

If you have a take-a-penny-leave-a-penny jar, and somebody comes and takes 500$ worth of pennies. Do you think they are possibly abusing the system?

Or if someone said "Hey guys I brought this cake in for everyone to have some." and then someone later said "Oh, I stole the cake because I have some friends who wanted some cake. In fact they wanted the cake more than you guys, so I'm glad that you didn't get any".

Re: Jonathan Stark responds to Sam Odio

#60
post #9

I'm finding myself in a significant minority here, which is always an interesting time to stand back and reflect. I hope this post doesn't come off as a troll; I am genuinely curious where my beliefs diverge from the majority. I cannot understand why Sam's charity raising has raised such an outrage. Here is why. First, what he did was within the bounds of the experiment. Johnathan provided the Starbucks card to be us…

>Sam's charity giving your own money away is charity, redirecting somebody else's money isn't a charity, it is management at best theft at worst

Not to mention the fact that the Starbucks money, due to it being put through eBay of all things, will have eBay and PayPal fees deducted, and the final bid might not even come close to $600 because the nominal value of a card isn't exactly dictated by the amount put on it.

So unless someone is nice enough to tie up $600 of their own money in coffee just to redress that balance, this Odio fella has just wasted it for the sake of what, self promotion?

I'd say he did it remaining startlingly unaware of the potential consequences and didn't actually think anything through beyond taking the money.

Finally, since he posted his code on github, how do we know other people didn't use it and take money themselves? And how much?

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