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The Plague of the Poor

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Re: The Plague of the Poor

#51

Post by diego_moita »

alignItems wrote: post #40

The Politicisation of the Plague in the USA is the real story here, and I think many in the US are unaware that it’s not like that in other places. For example in the UK vaccination rates amongst Conservative and Labour voters are the same. So why is there such disparity in the US between Biden voters and Trump voters when it comes to Covid-denialism, pseudo-cures, and antivaxxing?

> So why is there such disparity in the US between Biden voters and Trump voters when it comes to Covid-denialism, pseudo-cures, and antivaxxing?

And creationism vs. evolution, and global warming denial, and the "Trump won" big lie, etc... See a pattern here?

I call it anti-science ignorance.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#52

Post by dav_Oz »

I try to summarize leaving out explicit statements about Covid:

- a significant portion of the US-Population (my remark: similar to other western countries) is not willing to take the shot

- a huge proportion of which are underprivileged, from "working classes"

- the pharmaceutical companies have a gigantic financial leverage, in total $1.3 trillion. (My remark: an example from Germany: Biontech Investors: Thomas & Andreas Strüngmann (Hexal) €48 billion; Biontech Founders: Özlem Türeci & Uğur Şahin: €13.5 billion.)

- basic violations of informed and voluntary consent

- criminal past ("Pfizer paid out the biggest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history as part of a $2.3 billion fine for illegal marketing, along with numerous other penalties.")

- revolving door (Scott Gottlieb, the former head of the FDA who accelerated the agency’s drug approval process, now sits on Pfizer’s board.)

- lobbying spending etc.

So, if one is willing to step outside the danger of being killed or seriously harmed by the virus, it is actually scary from a mere power standpoint, a trojan horse for totalitarian elements which once installed are very difficult to get rid of.

Basically there are broadly two camps: One side is afraid of the virus the other side is afraid of losing their freedoms. And they are each accusing one another to be "over-sensitive" to the point that there is barley any exchange anymore but an adherence to be on the "right side" of history, science whatever. This split can be observed way before, the recent one with Trump. And from my perspective the long underlying mechanism (beginning with the 70's) is indeed the ever greater gap between the rich and the poor.

So my point: take the fears of the persons around you seriously, however irrational they seem to you. Social media is a very bad representation since it is designed for the single purpose to capture your attention. Try to take the conscious effort from time to time to get out of your bubble in which you were socialized. And then, try not to lecture immediately but instead listen and perceive the real persons before you, their motiviations, their stories etc.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#53

Post by p49k »

paulcole wrote: post #39
protomyth wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is advocating for people to get infected, but many front line workers have already had COVID while they were doing their hero work. Since studies are now showing they have better immunity than those who have received a vaccination, it is foolish to have them vaccinate. If you've had Measles, you aren't required to get a vaccination, so there is a well established precedent. The politicalization of the vaccine…

Isn’t it just easier (and with virtually no risk) to require people to vaccinate rather than debate over who did/did not actually have COVID?

Antibody tests exist. I’m not in any way antivax, but it makes no sense why people who already had COVID should be required to receive a vaccine instead of just proving they have antibodies.

This kind of illogical policy gives fuel to antivaxers.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#54

Post by [deleted] »

diego_moita wrote: post #46
unnamed76ri wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should I explore perspectives outside of accepted party narratives? I think not

Should I eat manure to know it tastes awful? I think not, it is enough to know where it comes from. But, if you disagree, by all means feast yourself.

[deleted]

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#55

Post by zzleeper »

sethammons wrote: post #50
paulcole wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it just easier (and with virtually no risk) to require people to vaccinate rather than debate over who did/did not actually have COVID?

I don't have a large social circle. I know of 2 vaccine related deaths (stroke), 2 vaccine related hospitalizations (heart issues), and one person now with tinnitus soon after the vaccine. Is the vaccine a better option than COVID? Data says yes (unless maybe for younger people, especially males). Is the vaccine 100% safe? No.

Sorry but that's impossible. FIVE vaccine related deaths/issues in your small social circle?

Next you are going to tell me you know of a vaccine-related car crash.

Please revisit your priors or who you put trust in, as they might as well lie.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#56

Post by sethammons »

zzleeper wrote: post #55
sethammons wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a large social circle. I know of 2 vaccine related deaths (stroke), 2 vaccine related hospitalizations (heart issues), and one person now with tinnitus soon after the vaccine. Is the vaccine a better option than COVID? Data says yes (unless maybe for younger people, especially males). Is the vaccine 100% safe? No.

Sorry but that's impossible. FIVE vaccine related deaths/issues in your small social circle? Next you are going to tell me you know of a vaccine-related car crash. Please revisit your priors or who you put trust in, as they might as well lie.

I don't know which vaccine each took. My dad's coworker had a stoke and died 2 days after getting the vaccine, two of my wife's brothers were the ones with heart issues. My daughter's bf's friends mom also had a stroke 2 days later. A friend now has tinnitus.

Not sure what else to tell you. The math suggests this is unlikely. But here it is.

Edit: also, nice edit changing it from "next I'll tell you that car accidents are marked as COVID deaths." I didn't say that and have no data on that so I appreciate you changing it.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#57

Post by tomjen3 »

jzellis wrote: post #17

The amazing thing is that there are still nominally bright people out there who regard dismissing this idiot crap as being "closed-minded". I do not have to consider every argument presented to me, particularly the ones that run counter to things I know to be true. If someone comes to me with the flat earth theory, I don't need to hear them out. When someone comes to me with pseudoscientific bullshit about "natural i…

If I hadn't listened to people telling me things I know to not be true, I wouldn't have the political and economical understanding that I have today.

Anyway, doesn't it ring an alarm bell in your head that you can say "I am smarter and morally superior to this dude", when you can be almost certain that he would say the same?

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#58

Post by j-bos »

dav_Oz wrote: post #52

I try to summarize leaving out explicit statements about Covid: - a significant portion of the US-Population (my remark: similar to other western countries) is not willing to take the shot - a huge proportion of which are underprivileged, from "working classes" - the pharmaceutical companies have a gigantic financial leverage, in total $1.3 trillion. (My remark: an example from Germany: Biontech Investors: Thomas & A…

Thank you for this summary, your last comment seems most important. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd summarize that as a willingness to see people as people.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#59

Post by tasogare »

paulcole wrote: post #39
protomyth wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is advocating for people to get infected, but many front line workers have already had COVID while they were doing their hero work. Since studies are now showing they have better immunity than those who have received a vaccination, it is foolish to have them vaccinate. If you've had Measles, you aren't required to get a vaccination, so there is a well established precedent. The politicalization of the vaccine…

Isn’t it just easier (and with virtually no risk) to require people to vaccinate rather than debate over who did/did not actually have COVID?

> Isn’t it just easier [...] to require people to [do what I think is right] rather than debate [...]? - said every soviet officers ever.

You might not believe in democracy, but this is still a better system than autocracy. Even if you were right (hint: you're not), this is setting a very dangerous precedent than can and will be abused down the line.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#60

Post by cupofcoffee »

sethammons wrote: post #56
zzleeper wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but that's impossible. FIVE vaccine related deaths/issues in your small social circle? Next you are going to tell me you know of a vaccine-related car crash. Please revisit your priors or who you put trust in, as they might as well lie.

I don't know which vaccine each took. My dad's coworker had a stoke and died 2 days after getting the vaccine, two of my wife's brothers were the ones with heart issues. My daughter's bf's friends mom also had a stroke 2 days later. A friend now has tinnitus. Not sure what else to tell you. The math suggests this is unlikely. But here it is. Edit: also, nice edit changing it from "next I'll tell you that car accident…

Odds of death from AstraZenaca are 1 in 1 million. Let's take odds of the event of having serious complications to be 1/100,000 just to be more skeptical.

The odds that 5 people in a row have such serious side effect is 1/10^25. That is equivalent to tossing 83 coins in a row and getting all heads.

Which is more likelier. 1/10^25 or that you have false information regarding this. : )

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