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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#51

Post by dragontamer »

francis-io wrote: post #38
dragontamer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we know that natural immunity only lasts 6 months and vaccination immunity lasts like 8 months (for Pfizer at least. Moderna probably a little bit longer, unsure how much longer though). Either way, you need a round to re-up your immune system. A lot of these Delta cases are "breakthroughs", in vaccinated populations... or reinfections (ie: in already infected populations) For example: South Dakota was someth…

It's my understanding we only measure antibodies, which hang around after an infection for a while. We still have "the pattern" to create more once our immune system learns how to beat something.

No. There are substantial studies on the reinfection rates of P.1 (aka Gamma)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909850/

https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(21)00183-5/full...

B.1.617.2 (aka Delta) also has shown properties showing that it evades natural immunity after 180-days, similar to P.1 / Gamma.

The "antibody measurement" studies are trying to narrow down the exact time that our immunity wanes. But it is a well-proven fact that natural immunity lasts less than a year, given what we've seen in Araraquara, Brazil and Manaus, Brazil.

It seems to be ~180 days, subject to more tests. So that's the number I'm going to assume until I see a better study.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#52

Post by wk_end »

core-utility wrote: post #30
unchocked wrote: post #11

Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.

And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what the line is. In the US, as with all things related to government power, it's decided jointly through the work of the three branches of government and the factors that influence them - democratic appeal, the constitution, jurisprudence, and so on.

At any rate, "vaccination for a highly infectious, potentially deadly virus" indisputably counts as "health". Everything might be health-based if you want it to be (maybe), but the nature of the American system hopefully and usually minimizes room for abuse of that power - and certainly there's no appearance of abuse of that power here, now.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#53

Post by LatteLazy »

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

I feel exactly the same

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#55

Post by betterunix2 »

woodpanel wrote: post #15

Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#56

Post by cbdumas »

core-utility wrote: post #30
unchocked wrote: post #11

Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.

And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.

That line would be drawn through elections, legislation, and court decisions. Decisions like the one OP was referring to [0] where the Supreme Court found that compulsory vaccination is within the state's power, and further that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#57

Post by gregwebs »

IMHO the effective thing to do is to focus all our efforts on vaccinating 100% of those that will end up in the ICU (the elderly and those with co-morbidities).

These kinds of vaccine mandates get some of those at the greatest risk vaccinated but also ends up being a giant distraction in the US and makes it harder for the rest of the world to get the vaccines that they need as well. I think the blanket mandate approach is used because it is a lot easier for the leaders at the top to make these proclamations then to organize an outreach approach that actually reaches those most vulnerable.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#59

Post by outside1234 »

francis-io wrote: post #8

I feel awful for the people with religious or medical reasons they can't be vaccinated. I can't imagen having to potentially pick between a truly held religious belief and proving for a family.

I can - I'd dump the voodoo.

And there are a vanishingly small number of medical reasons to skip it. Most of the people claiming this are making it up.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#60

Post by 1270018080 »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #34
aaroninsf wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Truly held" false belief is still false, and no justification for undermining public health, or being a parasite on other's contributions to it. As the MAGA fascist Q-cultists are so fond of chanting, f--k their feelings.

How is it "undermining public health" to refuse vaccines which don't work against transmission?

"refuse vaccines which don't work against transmission?"

Pretty sure that's false.

Regardless, if you have antivaxxers taking up a hospital beds and others with legitimate issues missing out on care, I'm sure you can see how this is a public health issue.

There's no way you asked that question in good faith. Not a chance.

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