Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates' • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#51

Post by IncRnd » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

simonw wrote: post #15

This happened to both Google Photos and Flickr too. Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this? Google Photos in 2015: https://www.wired.com/story/when-it-comes-to-gorillas-google... Flickr in 2015: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

The reason these companies don't fix these systems is because they don't know how. It is easier to remove certain outputs or retire the whole system. There is no line of code they can tweak.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#52

Post by dadoge » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

ALittleLight wrote: post #49

The video features white and black men. It seems like concluding the algorithm is calling black men primates is the same kind of error people are accusing the algorithm/Facebook of. i.e. The reason you think it's racist is because you assume it's talking about black people specifically suggesting you think the word is more apt to describe black people. Primates and humans are similar labels. This was almost certainly…

Intentional or not, the outcome is all that matters.

In every aspect of your life

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#53

Post by tartoran » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #19

The AI is very honest and innocent, it doesn't know what political correctness is. I've heard stories of parents whose kids would also mislabel a black human as a gorilla.

AI doesn’t build itself in a vaccuum. The very people who train it are likely to be biased in one direction or another and if left unchecked their mastetpiece will be biased as well. Now, if these algos were staying in a lab or something it wouldn’t be a problem but as soon as they hit the real world they should be held up to some standards, don’t you think?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#54

Post by nolaspring » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #51

simonw wrote: post #15

This happened to both Google Photos and Flickr too. Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this? Google Photos in 2015: https://www.wired.com/story/when-it-comes-to-gorillas-google... Flickr in 2015: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

The reason these companies don't fix these systems is because they don't know how. It is easier to remove certain outputs or retire the whole system. There is no line of code they can tweak.

Richen the dataset it’s trained on enough so that the model is correct before you release it to prod.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#55

Post by baby » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

tartoran wrote: post #31

mycodesucks wrote: post #3

I mean... It's not wrong, we're all primates.

How would you feel if you’d be labeled supremacist (only if your skin complexion was white)? After all the human species is the supreme species... Oh well I guess that wouldn’t bother you and you’d take it as a compliment. Now imagine the reverse of a compliment, to be given one of the labels that has been used again and again to belittle you, to make you feel inferior (only to make others feel above you), a label wh…

Intent matters.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#56

Post by missedthecue » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

not2b wrote: post #11

scotty79 wrote: post #5

Is that a result of a skewed training set or are people really hard to tell apart from gorillas if there are no obvious tells like large difference in brightness of different areas of the face?

Skewed training set, very few dark skinned human faces.

The training set had more primates than dark skinned humans? Unlikely.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#57

Post by exporectomy » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #19

The AI is very honest and innocent, it doesn't know what political correctness is. I've heard stories of parents whose kids would also mislabel a black human as a gorilla.

People need to learn to cope with the difference between innocent mistakes and expressions of genuine feelings of contempt/etc.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#58

Post by aufhebung » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

dadoge wrote: post #52

ALittleLight wrote: post #49

The video features white and black men. It seems like concluding the algorithm is calling black men primates is the same kind of error people are accusing the algorithm/Facebook of. i.e. The reason you think it's racist is because you assume it's talking about black people specifically suggesting you think the word is more apt to describe black people. Primates and humans are similar labels. This was almost certainly…

Intentional or not, the outcome is all that matters. In every aspect of your life

I don't know if this is necessarily true. We have separate charges for murder and manslaughter for example.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#59

Post by IncRnd » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

nolaspring wrote: post #54

IncRnd wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason these companies don't fix these systems is because they don't know how. It is easier to remove certain outputs or retire the whole system. There is no line of code they can tweak.

Richen the dataset it’s trained on enough so that the model is correct before you release it to prod.

That's sort of obvious. How do you know that wasn't attempted?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#60

Post by wpietri » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

simonw wrote: post #15

This happened to both Google Photos and Flickr too. Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this? Google Photos in 2015: https://www.wired.com/story/when-it-comes-to-gorillas-google... Flickr in 2015: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

This reminds me of a favorite tweet from 2013: "Then Google Maps was like, 'turn right on Malcolm Ten Boulevard' and I knew there were no black engineers working there" -- https://twitter.com/alliebland/status/402990270402543616

Facebook, like a lot of tech companies, has long had problems with diversity in engineering. Here's an article from April that discusses specific incidents and the broader background: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/04/06/faceboo...