Live data from Hacker News

The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

bbc.com

51–60 of 78 posts

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#51
post #3

The article has some great examples of risks that were hyped out of proportion to their true severity. Should these things be considered? Yes. But only a little. If you halt programs completely for tail risks you'll never get anywhere. Modern examples, IMO, are: - Kessler Syndrome - Trying to prevent an asteroid hitting the earth - Nuclear war making the entire earth uninhabitable

In the documentary The Man Who Saved The World, Stanislav Petrov travels to meet Kevin Costner, his favourite actor, at home. Costner asks him, if he hadn't acted as he did, how many people would have died. You expect him to say, 50 million, or something. He says, everyone. Everyone on earth would've died. It's a chilling moment. (And there's been a lot more than that one near miss.) What kind of crazy species are we that we build a system that when it malfunctions (as it did that day) seems likely to kill everyone on the planet?!

Now I read on HN that the danger of nuclear war is hyped out of proportion to its true severity, and should be considered only a little. Sorry, maybe I misunderstand. I have read a similar thing on HN a few times though, people that seem to think nuclear war really would be no big deal at all.

But it always seems weird to be how some people are so worried to the point of obsession about global warming without apparently ever giving a thought to the ever-present risk of full-scale nuclear war—something infinitely worse. (Well, hardly "war", just a flurry of button-pressing for a few minutes.)

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#52

Does SETI not count? Easy to imagine the first received ETI signal being some world-ending infohazard. [edit]: Targeting humans: a viral ideological, philosophical, or religious meme that causes us to self-destruct. A technological gift with insidious Trojan Horse functionality (a biotechnological machine with subtle side effects; a physics device that touches physics we haven't discovered). Irresistible instructions…

I myself think if any theory beyond that of the Fermi Paradox holds water it’s likely the Aurora Hypothesis which simply states that colonizing space is incredibly dangerous and therefore hard to do at scale beyond your immediate solar system, hence why we haven’t seen anything in ours I don’t quite buy it but it feels the most plausible of all the alternative explanation for Fermi Because of phenomenons like Simulta…

I'm sceptical of any notions of "we are just among the first of civilizations ever" because as far as I understand from the studies of sun-like star sytems that could be hospitable to life, Earth is a bit on the late side; close to the average, but definitely not an "early" formation, and the time advantage or "development head start" that a sizeable fraction other stars/planets comparable to ours (I'm not talking about "first generation" hydrogen stars here) has had is immense (e.g. a billion years).

In essence, the idea of us being among the first in our galaxy is compatible with the notion that intelligent life forming is so scarce that there's only ever going to be just a couple civilizations in our galaxy or that we're alone; because if life is so common that our galaxy would have (for example) a hundred intelligent civilization spawning events, then the expectation is that half of them would have been before us, and it would be a really, really unlikely that all of them are on Earth-like planets younger than us and none of them are on the multitude of Earth-like planets orbiting Sun-like planets older than us.

Also, given all the time-consuming steps required for life to form, "around the same time" would optimistically mean something on the scale of +/- a million years. Like, if the protozoic era took 0.1% more or less, that would be a difference of two million years; so if some civilization was much older or much younger, then the difference would be much more than that, and if we encounter a planet that's +/- hundred thousand years of progress, that mean that we really progressed at a remarkably coincidentally equal starting point and pace; and if we encounter a civilization that's just a thousand years of technological development ahead or behind, then that would be a so unbelievable coincidence that I'd consider that some kind of intelligent designer is required to explain it.

The concept of simultaneous discovery happens because the discoverers share an environment where the prerequisites for that discovery appear at the same time; this would not be plausible for civilizations forming naturally through evolution without any contact or influence between them, that would work only if they're e.g. intentionally designed and "planted" on planets by some previous civilization.

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#53
post #3

The article has some great examples of risks that were hyped out of proportion to their true severity. Should these things be considered? Yes. But only a little. If you halt programs completely for tail risks you'll never get anywhere. Modern examples, IMO, are: - Kessler Syndrome - Trying to prevent an asteroid hitting the earth - Nuclear war making the entire earth uninhabitable

In the documentary The Man Who Saved The World , Stanislav Petrov travels to meet Kevin Costner, his favourite actor, at home. Costner asks him, if he hadn't acted as he did, how many people would have died. You expect him to say, 50 million, or something. He says, everyone . Everyone on earth would've died . It's a chilling moment. (And there's been a lot more than that one near miss.) What kind of crazy species are…

Nuclear war (especially during the cold war, when we had much more warheads than now) would absolutely be a big deal and a horrible mass death, but it would not have ended humanity.

Like, if there's a scale of catastrophic events that goes from 0 to 10 where 0 is no big deal and 10 is human extinction, then the worst events humanity has ever seen are somewhere below 1 on that scale and absolutely horrific mass death is something like 2/10 - because the gap between the damage required for that and damage required for extinction is so much larger than the gap between no big deal and worse mass death than we have ever seen. Arguably the worst damage that life on Earth has seen is the dinosaur-ending asteroid, and IMHO a fraction homo sapiens (though perhaps not our civilization) could survive even that. A full scale USSR-USA exchange in 1960s might perhaps kill most people in the northern hemisphere and perhaps cause a nuclear winter decreasing crop yields with an associated famine - but if just a fraction of people in South Asia and Africa and South America survive the famine while the North nukes themselves to radioactive glasslands, that's very, very far from extinction.

Killing half of humanity would literally be an unprecedented level of horror, but it would not end our civilization; killing 90% of humanity would likely end our civilization-as-we-know it but would not end our species, that would bring us to the population level that Earth had in 1700s; and killing 99.99% of humanity would definitely destroy our civilization but it would "just" push back our population growth to the numbers we had ~70 000 years ago - horrific for every individual, but still not an extinction event.

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#54
If you entertain the MWI (many worlds interpretation) of quantum mechanics, then maybe you could say these moments did end humanity on other branches of spacetime. The idea is useless in practice, but fun to think about, if the popular fiction of the day is any indication. :)

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#55

I thought the article would talk about someone like Stanislav Petrov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov or Vasily Archipov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov_(vice_admira... Or the latest Future of Life Award lareats https://futureoflife.org/future-of-life-award

Exactly, this article is pretty goofy. There was never a real possibility that the Trinity test would ignite the atmosphere; the idea was proposed largely in jest and dismissed with the briefest of calculations. The modern-day equivalent would be the protesters who argued that the LHC (and before it, the RHIC at Brookhaven) shouldn't be powered up because it might create a black hole that swallows the Earth. Or those who argued that the RTG on the Cassini probe might break apart in a launch accident and poison vast swathes of life on Earth. Why didn't the author mention those concerns? They had just as much merit.

The Cuban Missile Crisis, on the other hand, was no joke. We were amazingly lucky that Murphy was on vacation that month. Our reliance on luck to avoid destroying humanity is much, much scarier than our reliance on reason.

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#56
post #12
post #4

Some big threats: - Something with the spread rate of COVID-delta, and a high lethality rate after a long incubation period. - Enriching uranium in a rather small facility. This may already have happened and been kept quiet. Laser enrichment was talked about a lot in the early 1990s, and then suddenly, after some announcements from Lawrence Livermore, things got much quieter.[1][2] As high-powered lasers get better,…

Long conjectured, some disillusioned uni student with the latest tech combining the R number of measles withe the lethality of ebola (and a dash of HIV on the side). As a twist, "The giving plague" by David Brin is an interesting (short) take on it.

If it's too lethal, it would probably kill all its carriers before spreading too far

I wonder if anyone's ever calculated the optimal parameters for a disease to end humanity

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#57
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long conjectured, some disillusioned uni student with the latest tech combining the R number of measles withe the lethality of ebola (and a dash of HIV on the side). As a twist, "The giving plague" by David Brin is an interesting (short) take on it.

If it's too lethal, it would probably kill all its carriers before spreading too far I wonder if anyone's ever calculated the optimal parameters for a disease to end humanity

There’s a game about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_Inc.

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#58
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long conjectured, some disillusioned uni student with the latest tech combining the R number of measles withe the lethality of ebola (and a dash of HIV on the side). As a twist, "The giving plague" by David Brin is an interesting (short) take on it.

If it's too lethal, it would probably kill all its carriers before spreading too far I wonder if anyone's ever calculated the optimal parameters for a disease to end humanity

It doesn't have to kill anyone. Just sterilize the young.

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#59
I'm not sure I agree with these, honestly. Take the first one (opening Apollo 11's doors "prematurely"). No matter what decision was made, no ill could come of it, since there weren't any microbes to be unleashed.

Deciding not to launch a "counterattack" with nuclear weapons based on a hunch that the alert you're getting is false; THAT'S a world-changing decision.

Re: The moments that could have accidentally ended humanity

#60
I take it for granted that human beings won’t last forever as a species, and that’s probably a good thing. It would appear we have the unique privilege of creating our replacements from scratch. Hopefully we don’t screw that up and finish with a gray goo scenario.
Post reply on HN