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Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

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Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#51

Post by kodah »

commoner wrote: post #44
kodah wrote: post #31

I was just looking at Zorin. I use PopOS as a daily driver and one of my favorite things about it is that it supports the firmware update manager. Zorin Connect is highly compelling, but without the firmware update manager I'm not quite sold.

I think the GNOME Firmware app should be a suitable replacement. It also uses fwupd/LVFS for firmware updates: https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.gnome.Firmware The GNOME Software app that's included in Zorin OS should also check for and be able to install firmware updates.

I downloaded it on Virtualbox and didn't see any updates for Intel Management Engine, which the firmware update manager is currently griping about, but the mechanisms it uses to check could be obscured. I'll give a try on one of my other computers and see how it goes.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#52

Post by phendrenad2 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #2

> Since it's based on Ubuntu 20.04.3 ...ok, can someone explain why anyone should bother with this when Ubuntu 20.04.3 already exists? What does it do so much differently that makes it "fun, productive, and rock solid"? As far as I can tell from this marketing copy, it's just Ubuntu with specific set of preinstalled packages and maybe a special theme. Honestly, there are so many of these "OS"s that I kinda want to ju…

Having used ZorinOS (and Ubuntu, and Mint, and several other "based on Ubuntu"s), it has a nicer installer, and a nicer package manager (it can find and install snaps and flatpaks based on a text search, which makes finding mainstream apps easier). Also it's GNOME install is configured to be a bit more Windows-like.

Overall, it feels like an incremental but noticeable improvement.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#53

Post by sgc »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #21
smoldesu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ultimate explanation is that none of these distros are necessarily competing with one another. I use Ubuntu on my media server, Arch on my desktop, Debian in my cloud instances, BSD on my router and I play with NixOS on my dev machine. You could argue that it doesn't matter since they're all POSIX-based, but typically someone doesn't go through the trouble of releasing their own disk image unless they're doing so…

> but typically someone doesn't go through the trouble of releasing their own disk image unless they're doing something novel. That's what I'm saying though, what is novel about this? So novel that it made sense to make a new distribution for it?

Ok, I'll bite.

I actually use it on my laptop I'm typing on. I installed it because it was basically ubuntu and I didn't feel like configuring themes at that time, and I didn't really care.

However, I have long decided I should just install Ubuntu since there is no point at having another actor I need to trust in the chain, even though I need to install so many things from source anyways just because ubuntu repositories are not always bleeding edge enough for me. Problem is, I was so causal on my install that I did not notice the default Ubuntu install does not separate out /home partition, so I need to copy all my date to an external disk to upgrade ... You get the picture.

There is nothing here other than something somebody who either did not care enough or did not know enough would be decide to use and add the risk of another upstream source they aren't vetting, and actually they lock some things out and you need to use alternate repositories to install them. Most repositories are just Ubuntu repositories otherwise. They do not use their own other than for a few things. But they sell a pro version, so their own motivation is simple - to be a small business.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#54

Post by petre »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #2

> Since it's based on Ubuntu 20.04.3 ...ok, can someone explain why anyone should bother with this when Ubuntu 20.04.3 already exists? What does it do so much differently that makes it "fun, productive, and rock solid"? As far as I can tell from this marketing copy, it's just Ubuntu with specific set of preinstalled packages and maybe a special theme. Honestly, there are so many of these "OS"s that I kinda want to ju…

Probably because of Ubuntu branding using annoying colors like magenta and orange?

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#55

Post by petre »

smackeyacky wrote: post #25
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what ways? That's all I'm asking. If you build something you think is so different from what it is based on that it deserves to have its own name+OS, then why can't you be bothered to say what it is that makes it different? Instead we get useless words like "fun", "beautiful", and "easy to use".

Debian has a rule that precludes the distribution of non free software by default. They also select older versions of software than you might like due to their release cycle. That includes stuff like firmware for peripherals. So distributions further down the chain tend to include that stuff, so if you prefer to be on the cutting edge and aren't a purist about your distribution, you pick something else.

> They also select older versions of software than you might like due to their release cycle

Not necessarily true anymore. They have roughly the same versions as Ubuntu, sometimes newer if you compare Ubuntu 18.04 with Debian 10 and considerably newer packages than OpenSuSe Leap 15.3 which carries some of the same versions as 15.0.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#56

Post by southerntofu »

istingray wrote: post #20
seniorivn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu is a trademark, they can fork it as they did, but if they want to use their name, they need permission and Ubuntu has a strict policy on that

Ah got it, so that makes sense. I bet the licensing around Android also explains some of the fragmentation etc. IMO it would serve System76's brand to have a tight Ubuntu partnership/license, at least for me as a customer. Maybe that's in their roadmap.

> I bet the licensing around Android also explains some of the fragmentation

I don't think that's the problem. AOSP is free-software but Google tries to enforce strict guidelines for "Android" labeling. It has some good sides (Treble architecture for maintainable devices) but mostly bad sides (forcing to package the Google Play Services universal spyware). Still, whether approved by Google or not, you find plenty of both high-quality and low-quality Android distros (with and without source code), but Google's approved Androids certainly have much less fragmentation in terms of features/settings than competing (or homebrew) Android.

> it would serve System76's brand to have a tight Ubuntu partnership/license

How would that benefit users? Canonical (Ubuntu's editor) is basically the Windows of GNU/Linux world, forcing telemetry and enabling privacy-invasive ads into your desktop. Actually-benevolent entities like System76 could only benefit from dropping Ubuntu entirely and contributing directly to upstream Debian (the basis of Ubuntu) which is maintained by a non-profit foundation to which many different entities (including other big companies) contribute.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#57

Post by southerntofu »

Koshkin wrote: post #24
l0b0 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu is based on Debian, another Linux distro, and was still a huge step forward. Building on the current best in class to create something better sounds like a sensible idea.

I don’t know about that… Recently I installed Ubuntu on a laptop, said “meh” and then replaced it with the stock Debian stable which has been working flawlessly. (Also, I feel like I trust Debian more than Ubuntu, although I’d have hard time explaining exactly why.)

Because Canonical has forced telemetry and ads on their users, betraying everyone's trust? They built their business empire on distributing free CDs and financing local communities (on the condition that they ONLY promote/support Ubuntu)... All the hard, user-facing trust-building work was done by volunteers who've been definitely betrayed by this greedy corporation. We could also talk about questionable technical decisions:

- X11 model is broken, people are working on Wayland to replace it, let's write an entirely solution (Mir)

- GNOME2 is working too well and people are too happy with it, let's produce a desktop environment full of bugs at least for the next 4 years (Unity) instead of fixing bugs and performance issues in GNOME3

- Package managing is just a little too much reliable, what if we forced `apt` to install random snapcraft packages instead of the intended deb packages?

To get a bit of historical perspective, Ubuntu copied what worked really well with Mandrake/Mandriva: a user-friendly user interface. But they copied it to extinguish all alternatives, which mostly worked. Nowadays, Ubuntu is only good if you can get commercial support ($$$$) to fix everything they break.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#58

Post by southerntofu »

amelius wrote: post #38
prirai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question should be reversed. Nvidia itself doesn't care about open sourcing their driver so that it could be integrated as a kernel module. They provide a closed source blob which isn't even updated quite often. - Lookup for what Linus Torvalds said about Nvidia. For the dependency part, idk what problem you're facing. As long as you install using your package manager, you don't have to care about dependencies m…

The main problem is that some projects require versions of other projects that are of the form "later than X but no later than Y". These projects can conflict with the requirements of other projects. Regarding NVidia, yes I know about the gesture which Torvalds (rightfully) made to them. The problem is that I (and lots of people) are dependent on NVidia, so we are dependent on OSes which are supported by them.

> These projects can conflict with the requirements of other projects.

There's established ways to install those. Some are language-specific (python's virtualenvs) while others are system-wide (guix/nix/flatpak/snap/appimage/0install). If you have a more precise question about how to setup/package a specific project, feel free to ask.

> The problem is that I (and lots of people) are dependent on NVidia, so we are dependent on OSes which are supported by them.

I'm sorry for you, but we can't really blame that situation on the free-software ecosystem. If our governments and police were more concerned with multinationals (Nvidia in this example) exploiting people than with poor people stealing food or squatting abandoned houses, maybe there could be a justice on this planet.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#59

Post by hulitu »

l0b0 wrote: post #3
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #2

> Since it's based on Ubuntu 20.04.3 ...ok, can someone explain why anyone should bother with this when Ubuntu 20.04.3 already exists? What does it do so much differently that makes it "fun, productive, and rock solid"? As far as I can tell from this marketing copy, it's just Ubuntu with specific set of preinstalled packages and maybe a special theme. Honestly, there are so many of these "OS"s that I kinda want to ju…

Ubuntu is based on Debian, another Linux distro, and was still a huge step forward. Building on the current best in class to create something better sounds like a sensible idea.

Better than the best. I need more english classes to bring myself up to date.

Re: Zorin OS 16 is what a Linux desktop distribution should be

#60

Post by istingray »

southerntofu wrote: post #56
istingray wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah got it, so that makes sense. I bet the licensing around Android also explains some of the fragmentation etc. IMO it would serve System76's brand to have a tight Ubuntu partnership/license, at least for me as a customer. Maybe that's in their roadmap.

> I bet the licensing around Android also explains some of the fragmentation I don't think that's the problem. AOSP is free-software but Google tries to enforce strict guidelines for "Android" labeling. It has some good sides (Treble architecture for maintainable devices) but mostly bad sides (forcing to package the Google Play Services universal spyware). Still, whether approved by Google or not, you find plenty of…

Thanks for helping me understand Linux. Working to understand better how it works. I like your idea of Debian, based on what you said.
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