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Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

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Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#51

Post by ethbr0 »

mrtksn wrote: post #40
stirlo wrote: post #4

Finally. This is exactly how regulators should respond to the market abuse of these technology monopolies. If they wanted to head this off all they had to do was pay a reasonable amount of tax in the country where the revenue was generated and offer a reasonable (single percentage) fee for facilitating payments. They chose not to so they reap what they sow

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

Developers (and users) deserve choice.

If you want to pay 30% to Apple to take care of that for you, then you should be able to.

If someone else doesn't want to pay 30% to Apple, then they should have that right too.

I've lived through both fragmented platforms and unified platforms, and I'll take the former any day.

They're messy, but fair and dynamic. And critically, they evolve and allow new competition to emerge.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#52

Post by simondotau »

oarsinsync wrote: post #45
simondotau wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $99/year gives you additional developer tools and access to the App Store storefront. It's up to Apple what constitutes a sufficient license fee for the commercial use of Apple's proprietary software libraries. Apple's libraries are licensed to developers under whatever license Apple chooses. They could require a certain revenue share regardless of which payment gateway is used. Heck, they could license it under…

> The $99/year is predominantly for access to the App Store. It's up to Apple what constitutes a license fee for developers to have commercial use of Apple's proprietary software libraries. Interestingly, the $99/year fee is to access the app store, but there's a a $299/year fee to bypass the appstore. https://developer.apple.com/support/enrollment/ notes: The Apple Developer Program annual fee is 99 USD and the Appl…

It is hypothesised that the main reason Apple persists with the $99/year fee is as a glorified CAPTCHA, to stop developers from mechanically creating account after account in order to upload scummy app after scummy app. If that's the reason, I wouldn't entirely blame them.

The $299 enterprise program probably costs Apple substantially more than $299 per customer/enterprise in order to run. While I have no idea about the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised that it is a substantial loss-maker for Apple, justified only because it's necessary to keep the iPhone/iPad relevant in some enterprises.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#53

Post by Vespasian »

q-rews wrote: post #28
stale2002 wrote: post #25

So, everything else that has happened up to now, could be described as minor losses, for Apple and Google. This is not such a case though. This is a major loss for them. For all the hacker new commenters, who have been commenting on this topic, for the year that the drama has been going on, and were convinced that Apple and Google were going to win this fight.... well you need to re-evaluate what made you think that.…

I agree but I'm curious about how it will play out in practice. Apple charges $99/year just to publish apps on the store and then takes 30% of the payments. If forced, will they leave just the $99 payment or will they change it to, say, "pay more if you want your payment processor" or "you can use your payment processor but you still owe us 15%"? Many platforms require fees to sell on them. eBay for example has asked…

They wouldn't be forced to offer their services for free.

However laws can and do regulate what constitutes a "fair" price for a certain service.

In some countries the quasi/effective/total monopoly ISP is forced to rent their last mile phone cables to competitors for a regulated price.

A similar thing could happen to Apple and Google with a government agency deciding what they are allowed to charge for their services of providing the app store and the OS.

Or they could be forced to allow competing app stores with the same privileges as their own (beyond what is "technically" possible on Android).

Either way it looks like they'll loose their iron grip over on customers phones (in some countries at least). That's the price of effectively monopolizing a market and getting very rich doing it.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#54

Post by simondotau »

Hamuko wrote: post #43
simondotau wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $99/year gives you additional developer tools and access to the App Store storefront. It's up to Apple what constitutes a sufficient license fee for the commercial use of Apple's proprietary software libraries. Apple's libraries are licensed to developers under whatever license Apple chooses. They could require a certain revenue share regardless of which payment gateway is used. Heck, they could license it under…

> It's their code, it's up to them. Well, until the regulators step in (again).

Are you suggesting that regulators can force Apple to give away their stuff for free if they want to participate in that market? That doesn't sound right to me.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#55

Post by dannyw »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #33

A good regulatory trend. This is what governments are supposed to do to support what I would call “safe and efficient capitalism.” That said, Apple did cut in half the fee for almost all developers and I installed Netflix, HBO, Prime, and Hulu apps that work fine with my existing streaming media plans that are direct to the providers. I forget, did Google also recently reduce developer fees? It may be as simple as bo…

Apple only gives those exception for "Reader" apps. They'll still ban you if you tried to do a Hey (from Basecamp).

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#56

Post by boudin »

mrtksn wrote: post #40
stirlo wrote: post #4

Finally. This is exactly how regulators should respond to the market abuse of these technology monopolies. If they wanted to head this off all they had to do was pay a reasonable amount of tax in the country where the revenue was generated and offer a reasonable (single percentage) fee for facilitating payments. They chose not to so they reap what they sow

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

I think it's going to be better for users and developers. On the ios store it will be possible to add a link to a website, tell the user that an external registration is necessary for apps that are companion app of a web service.

For the case above, it should also be possible for customers with one user account only to use ios apps. What I just say above might seems to make no sense, but that's the current user experience that Apple enforces us to provide.

From a dev experience, I can only see thinga getting better. If we can get to the point when an app store allows to publish apps that can be built on something else than a mac and with a good CI and CD, that could be a dev dream come true.

From a business point of view, it can only be positive, having ways out of the random death sentenced decided randomly by Apple and Google using their store obscure rules and review process to kill apps.

On android it's already fragmented in a way (Huawei has its own store now that their phones doesn't ship with the google layer). So it can just push more devs to take this into consideration.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#57

Post by Vespasian »

vbezhenar wrote: post #42
bubblethink wrote: post #12

Is there a better source and the text of the law ? Payment systems are a proxy for the fee since there isn't an explicit publishing fee. It would be quite straightforward for both Apple and Google to charge a publishing fee, which may end up close to the current rent. The larger issue is that there aren't alternative app stores. Apple doesn't allow them at all, and Google severely restricts them at the technical and…

There are plenty of alternative app stores for Android. Google restricts them, but not severely. Android 12 will lift some important restrictions from alternative app stores. I'm not trying to portrait Google as innocent, there's still work to be done. But they are absolutely in different leagues with Apple when it comes to user freedom.

Not only the technical hurdles but also the legal ones need to be significantly lower.

Google has enormous power over phone suppliers and can force them to preinstall their apps and store and nothing else.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#58

Post by commoner »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #34
weddpros wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and they can, because there's not a single EU company with an app store to harm. App stores are designed for profit, not simply for our convenience. Imagine a government forcing AirBnb to let people pay hand to hand to the owner of the apartment. It's the same issue, right?

No it is not the same issue. Airbnb doesn't have a say if I make arrangements of my own with the host. We lose the benefits and security provided by airbnb if we think that airbnb's cut is unjustified. I only wish we (users and devs) could do that on Ios.

Actually, Airbnb does have strict anti-steering rules just like Apple and Google do. Several lines from their off-platform policy:

> In order to protect our community and business, the following behaviors are prohibited:

> Taking people off of the Airbnb platform for new, partial, or future bookings

> Contacting potential guests prior to booking on Airbnb to move the booking off of Airbnb (ex: offering discounts to book off of Airbnb)

> Asking guests for contact information prior to booking; all guest communications prior to booking must be on Airbnb

> Asking for or using guests’ contact information to settle additional payments outside of Airbnb’s platform; all payments related to a guest’s stay, including extensions of a stay (and besides exceptions identified below), must go through Airbnb (ex: using the Resolution Center)

https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/2799/airbnbs-offplatform...

These rules are just as anti-competitive as the anti-steering rules in the Apple and Google app stores, and entrench Airbnb's market position.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#59

Post by Hamuko »

simondotau wrote: post #54
Hamuko wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's their code, it's up to them. Well, until the regulators step in (again).

Are you suggesting that regulators can force Apple to give away their stuff for free if they want to participate in that market? That doesn't sound right to me.

Why yes, regulators can force Apple to do what they want in their country. And they can very easily dictate how much Apple is allowed to charge for licensing. Fair licensing agreements already exist in the patent space.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#60

Post by jaywalk »

dalbasal wrote: post #31

The concessions Apple & Google made to "stave off regulation" are informative in themselves: It also agreed to let developers inform their users about payment options outside the App Store, using the email addresses that users gave them. Google said that it would only take 15 percent of developers' first million dollars instead of 30 percent. Combined with "competition for monopoly" elements like paying Telcoms not t…

Net Neutrality just meant that Google got to shovel YouTube streams onto ISP networks without having to pay. Let's not pretend there were ever any noble intentions behind it.
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