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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#51

Post by moksly »

larrymyers wrote: post #6

I think this article gets close, but glosses over one of the major issues in software dev hiring: the filtering process is all wrong. Front line recruiters tend to be non-technical, and can't pattern match for good candidates outside of very narrow criteria. (ex: They won't know that a person with strong C# skills will likely be just fine with Java.) Just getting your resume in front of actual people doing the hiring…

Recruiters are non-technical in every business though, why would we need special recruiters for programmers when we don’t need special recruiters for neurosurgeons?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#52

Post by nkingsy »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #5

A recent comment from reddit: This year I became a co-owner of the company that worked at for the past three years. It's a small development and consulting company and we're currently struggling to find new developers. At the same time, my girlfriend is trying to get her foot into this field. Since she's interested in a completely different tech stack than what we use, hiring her through good ol' nepotism is not goin…

I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade.

First there’s a code fluency wall you have to get over.

Then there’s a tech debt/spaghetti lesson that needs to be learned (IMO this can only be learned the hard way)

I did this with 6 months working on my own stuff 12 hours/day, then 6 months working for nothing but equity in a never gonna happen startup.

Once someone is over those two walls, they can be useful to a company. Absolutely never writing greenfield stuff, but maintenance, matching style, very clear start and end type stuff for at least a year.

Before you’ve internalized code as a fluent language and developed basic code hygiene, you should not look for a development job. Even if you get one you will be an imposter.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#53

Post by dfxm12 »

colordrops wrote: post #31
DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

Most software positions at SpaceX, even those working on critical flight code, do not require aerospace knowledge. And SpaceX is not a great example as they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind.

they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind

Is this a euphemism for an employer overworking and underpaying their talent?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#54

Post by paulpauper »

Its like this for all jobs: the reason is that a bad employee typically subtracts more value than a good employee adds. So companies put a lot of effort in lowering the odds of hiring bad employees even if it means positions remain unfilled.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#55

Post by gabereiser »

commandlinefan wrote: post #37
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

That all makes sense, and it bothers me, too, but they do hire somebody eventually, which implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment they're unfamiliar with and people they just met.

>implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes…

This is more a random fluke as much as sampling bias. Akin to someone either getting lucky or someone who is coming from a very similar environment. This isn’t a measurement that guarantees someone is competent, rather it’s a guarantee that someone is coming from just as incompetent an environment as you have.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#56

Post by jonfw »

gonehome wrote: post #36
faizshah wrote: post #24

When I was trying to get my first internship it took me 160 applications to get 1 interview, before that I applied every year for ~20 internships at the big names and never got 1 interview. Similarly for my senior year I applied to full time and internship positions it took me ~145 applications to get 2 interviews for internships (I would be interning after I graduate). I did the resume prep, went to the career fairs…

The lottery of front door applications is largely a waste of time. The best way to get an interview if you didn’t go to Stanford or MIT (I didn’t) and haven’t yet worked at a famous company is to get a referral. Which requires somehow making a friend or connection with someone at the place you want to be.

If you can build a specialized skill set you can make things much easier. When I got out of school with no experience, no internships and a degree from a second tier state school, I still had good luck on the job hunt.

What worked for me was that I had been studying Kubernetes and was probably the cheapest guy on the market with that skillset :)

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#57

Post by MontyCarloHall »

readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

On top of this, it’s hard to select for qualified people because the vast majority of interviewees are terrible candidates. Truly qualified job applicants get callbacks for (almost) every job they apply for, choose to interview at a few select companies, and get offers from most of the places they interview at. Thus, they’re only briefly in the interview pool. On the other hand, unqualified people are constantly getting rejected at every step of the process, and must continually re-insert themselves into the interview pool, and thus comprise the vast majority of interviewees.

Because of this, the interview process is not designed to efficiently handle a minority of qualified candidates, but rather efficiently weed out a majority of horrible candidates. It is therefore a terrible process for the people actually qualified to pass it.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#58

Post by dnautics »

dfxm12 wrote: post #53
colordrops wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most software positions at SpaceX, even those working on critical flight code, do not require aerospace knowledge. And SpaceX is not a great example as they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind.

they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind Is this a euphemism for an employer overworking and underpaying their talent?

Overworking, but probably not underpaying. I remember hearing about how much a SpaceX intern was payed and being shocked (it was several X my scientist pay)... Then she told me how many hours she was working, and it made some more sense (but it still seemed high -- scientists often also work 80+ hours)

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#59

Post by slumdev »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #9
readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

> Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. What's so bad about... mediocrity? For obvious statistical reasons, most companies, most jobs, and most people are mediocre (or worse).

> What's so bad about... mediocrity?

Nothing, if company managers would admit it.

Instinctively, they know it. The old cult of management-as-a-profession believes that by skillfully directing the activities of replaceable cogs, a company's managers can achieve outsized results.

But they can't admit it because they're afraid that knowledge would demotivate the replaceable cogs.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#60

Post by mooreds »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #5

A recent comment from reddit: This year I became a co-owner of the company that worked at for the past three years. It's a small development and consulting company and we're currently struggling to find new developers. At the same time, my girlfriend is trying to get her foot into this field. Since she's interested in a completely different tech stack than what we use, hiring her through good ol' nepotism is not goin…

This is a really useful perspective, thanks!

I will say that I've hired a couple of newer developers and in some cases they've moved on, but in other cases they've stayed with the company I was at when I hired them, in some cases for 3+ years. So not everyone leaves after 2 years.

I think that companies need to be really explicit about their training and goals and try to make employees happy. Yes, that bootcamp grad is going to be super happy to work for you for the first year, and grateful to have the experience. But, yes, they are going to start looking around. So plan for how to meet their needs as best you can. Some folks will simply be on the hunt for difference and comp, others will be happy to stay at the same company if you can challenge them and continue to let them grow.

> ... at the beginning of your career it's crucial for you to expose yourself to different technologies

This is one reason I feel like a small consulting shop is the best place to start a software development career. You matter (because it is a small shop) and you'll get exposure to many domains and technologies (because it is a consulting shop).

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