Live data from Hacker News

Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

charity.wtf

51–60 of 62 posts

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#51
post #44
post #12

I spent the past four years working as a data scientist for a healthcare company on population health initiatives, and started building out a body of research around how to engage clinicians using data (among other things, through dashboards). That's a bit different than the article, but one of my key learnings was that dashboards are often incredibly ineffective and only promulgated by well-intentioned engineers, ba…

Do you think there's an alternate approach to showing data that would be effective? I can definitely buy the idea that showing a bunch of fancy charts doesn't help most medical professionals, but I don't like the idea of giving up on trying to surface more data. Or is that what you're referring to as "non-dashboard approaches"?

Not the OP, but in my experience, when clinicians ask for more data, they're actually asking for more lineage or provenance metadata.

We boiled it down for our teams like this:

Administrators are top-down: they want a high-level view and to be able to drill down from there.

Individual physicians are bottom-up: they want "their" data about "their" patients, and maybe, sometimes, to compare to the peers they personally trust.

As with any professional group, there's some minority percentage that treats their work like a craft and knows how to use data to improve their practices; but the majority want qualitative data and value interpersonal relationships. Giving a dashboard to the latter group at all is wasting time and effort of all parties.

If your dashboard can't attribute all of its data and all of the patients referenced to match the physician's definition of "theirs," you've lost. That's the "more data" and "drill down" physicians care about.

If your dashboard isn't timely and clinical -- which generally means presented in a clinical voice, at the point of care, or otherwise when they have an opportunity to make the change you want them to make -- it's not going to be actionable. That means surfacing some alternative action right before they see a patient which might benefit from that, which is not when they're on their computer. They might be one of those doctors that never is on their computer until the very end of the day. Looking at your dashboard at 11pm about the patients from earlier today (or more likely, earlier this past quarter of the year) is not helpful.

Looking at your dashboard is non-clinical work, and doctors want to do clinical work. If you're going to make them go do a new and non-clinical thing, it has to reduce some other non-clinical thing in a way that's meaningful to them. Otherwise, they're just as likely to do an end-run around your application entirely, like the doctors who only use index cards to write notes or who fail to enter their passwords every morning and lock themselves out, so they don't have to use the EMR.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#52

From TFA... >every dashboard is a sunk cost >every dashboard is an answer to some long-forgotten question >every dashboard is an invitation to pattern-match the past >instead of interrogate the present >every dashboard gives the illusion of correlation >every dashboard dampens your thinking I disagree with this on all counts. A dashboard is a way to view multiple disparate metrics in a single place. Whether they are…

Hear hear.

At CoreOS I set up a number of dashboards specifically to socialize the normative behavior of our systems. Think of it as the difference between the person who just drives their car versus the person who knows what feels and sounds "normal".

The latter can tell when they need an oil change because of different vibrations in the engine and how the car sounds pulling up to a stop light (because of the engine sounds being reflected back into the window by parked cars).

Big surprise, it had the desired effect.

I'm especially with you on the notion of disparate metrics. While correlation is not causation, it's still a useful diagnostic tool.

Let's say someone in marketing walks a dashboard and and sees the following:

1) a new version has been pushed 2) customer tickets are up 20% over the number they're used to seeing

Does that mean that the new version caused the tickets? No. Will that allow them to ask? Absolutely. Will that urge behavior to reach out to support and release management to see if there's an interesting story to share internally (or with the world)? Hopefully.

You hit the nail on the head by calling out the absolutist / "I'm the authority on this matter" / "there is a single correct perspective" tone.

Your lack of shock at the author selling something can be remedied. They have a dog in this fight: https://www.honeycomb.io/teammember/charity-majors/

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#53
post #50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's an alternate approach to showing data that would be effective? I can definitely buy the idea that showing a bunch of fancy charts doesn't help most medical professionals, but I don't like the idea of giving up on trying to surface more data. Or is that what you're referring to as "non-dashboard approaches"?

I wrote a longer response to another comment with examples of some of the experiments and learnings. But, yes, I think there are effective alternatives, but I think it starts with being really clear on what your success measures are. Do you want to maximize patient outcomes? Do you want providers to feel engaged (or, perhaps, actually engage) with data? Do you want to minimize provider burnout? I was always surprised…

With respect to the tldr - so, on one arm, so to speak, is an interface where clinicians could use different combinations of measures to identify patients who might need some kind of intervention, like follow up attention. Then the other side is an analytic system that uses a specific set of measures, etc, and then messages clinicians with a recommended set of actions?

In the first case, the clinicians have to do analytical work (slice, dice) towards understanding the population of patients. That sounds more like epidemiology... In the latter case, how is it that clinicians will trust the recommender? Is it understood that there is a clinical rationale or authority behind the algorithm? It sounds like "uncontrolled" in this case is based on a measure that clinicians trust.

I think of dashboards as potentially good for monitoring outcomes against expectations, EDA as potentially good for focusing attention on subpopulations, and recommenders as potentially good for efficiently allocating action. In a broad way what you described is a monitoring system that pushes recommended actions out to doers. I'd venture that with busy clinicians that that needs to be pretty accurate, too, and/or that recommendations need both explicit justification and a link to collateral information.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#54
post #34
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious if you have any examples of "Non-dashboard approaches" to compare and contrast?

We tried a couple of different approaches: tableau reports, emailing static data to providers, sending spreadsheets of patient-level data, and building a Facebook or Twitter style feed. And then had different variations on each, and would run trials comparing different approaches. We pretty quickly found that sending data ("push") was way more effective at engagement than just having a tableau report they could go to…

Thank you so much! I'm working on improving construction management with better access to data and I think these insights will transfer very well to my domain.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#55
Honestly, the complaint here seems to be less about dashboards and more about the data behind them.

Static dashboards sound like timeseries backends, where the data is pre-aggregated (graphite / statsd, prometheus). You can't really drill down into the metrics, or can only drill down into preplanned dimensions. Grafana is a commonly used dashboarding frontend here.

Dynamic dashboards, in contrast, are dynamically aggregating data. More akin to structured logging, or maybe splunk / ELK. You have granular data, and write queries to extract, filter, and aggregate on demand. Tableau, PowerBI, Apache Superset all compete in this space.

But by focusing on the dashboard angle, the reader doesn't think to hardly about why they're different, and also why you might prefer one over the other. TSDB like Prometheus are very fast, and if you focus on collecting aggregate data, allow you to collect a lot more metrics, or sample much faster. You're probably not logging in the TSDB any labels associated with UserAgent strings, or screen size your mobile app got, etc. By paying the price in dimensionality, you get much faster queries at lower cost. I'll let you guess which type of backend Charity's startup represents.

Both have a place. I've been able to build canary dashboards that work quite well using both backends, as a proof of concept that something like Kayenta is feasible for my team. In fact, high dimensionality works against you in release engineering. The more dimensions you can compare across, the higher chance for a false positive, and the more investigations engineers have to do to rule them out. Worse, there are often confounding variables you need to go hunting for, and the dashboard won't find them for you.

And execs absolutely don't want to have to care about the complex causality chain you need to model. They want 'a single number' to improve on over time. They don't want a dashboard to dive in and analyze on ten dimensions. They want to see their chosen KPIs going to the right and up. Fundamentally, the dashboard is less important than your audience.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#56
The last paragraph really got me thinking about regression.

> raise your hand if you’ve ever been in an incident review where one of the follow up tasks was, “create a dashboard that will help us find this next time”

As a disciplined software engineer, I aspire to have each and every user facing bug captured first as an automated test. This helps form trust in the software. Ideally the users themselves can choose to write the tests and submit them for me.

This is akin to metrics. I completely agree, system-KPI metrics should be relevant and short. But there's nothing stopping you from collecting an archive of previous data experiment formulas.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a longer response to another comment with examples of some of the experiments and learnings. But, yes, I think there are effective alternatives, but I think it starts with being really clear on what your success measures are. Do you want to maximize patient outcomes? Do you want providers to feel engaged (or, perhaps, actually engage) with data? Do you want to minimize provider burnout? I was always surprised…

With respect to the tldr - so, on one arm, so to speak, is an interface where clinicians could use different combinations of measures to identify patients who might need some kind of intervention, like follow up attention. Then the other side is an analytic system that uses a specific set of measures, etc, and then messages clinicians with a recommended set of actions? In the first case, the clinicians have to do ana…

Quality measures are generally well-defined by external authorities, so questions like "what defines uncontrolled" are generally answered. Even when providers personally disagree with this (I worked with a provider who didn't believe in pre-diabetes), they still acknowledge that health care organizations are being judged on these measures, and that the measures are not just arbitrarily defined. How you improve your quality measures becomes where the question turns.

Your comment about epidemiology/EDA/etc really hit the nail on the head. If you sit in on population health meetings at your average hospital/clinic system, you'll see that many people really don't get this. Further, people often conflate their needs/desires with that of others-- so, the data-driven administrator is quick to say "we just need doctors to be able to slice and dice their data, and then we'll have better quality scores." But they're talking about what their needs are, and it's completely not what the doctors actually need (well, and from monitoring usage of dashboards for those types, I'd argue it's also not what they need either, but that's a different issue). And, the reason I keep saying "slice and dice" is because I've heard that phrase used by every vendor I've evaluated, and in practically every strategy meeting regarding population health at multiple institutions.

I'd personally shy away from describing this issue in terms of a recommender, since that has a pretty connotation in the ML world, and it doesn't really line up well (e.g., there's not a well-defined objective function or a clear feedback loop to train a recommendation system on). However, getting away from that specific concept, I think it's reasonable to say that there are needs for multiple distinct but ideally-related systems in the population health world: one for analysis to be used by quality and data people, and one specifically for the clinicians doing the work.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#58
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've spent a lot of time building Grafana dashboards and they've been extremely helpful with debugging. It doesn't solve all problems but it certainly helps narrow down where to look. And then once the bugs that led to the creation of that dashboard are fixed or retired, what's left for that data? It just sits there with its pretty graphs and eye-catching visualizations to snare the unwary who are looking for help…

How do things like message queue sizes, transactions per second, errors per minute, memory usage etc become less useful after solving one bug?

What if the next bug has nothing to do with the message queue? What if your last fix to improve the TPS ends up being sufficient headroom that the next problem never triggers a high rate? What if your errors per minute is only aggregating errors for the services you last had high error rates on?

The point: all those measures and the dashboard created to monitor them were likely put in place because of whatever prior bug or outage was traced to not knowing those metrics. But the next problem might be something else, for which the metrics are not collected, aggregated, or displayed. Now you've got a dashboard with lots of information, but it's not showing any problems, and it's not providing any insights into why your customers are complaining and all the product people are in fire drill mode.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've spent a lot of time building Grafana dashboards and they've been extremely helpful with debugging. It doesn't solve all problems but it certainly helps narrow down where to look. And then once the bugs that led to the creation of that dashboard are fixed or retired, what's left for that data? It just sits there with its pretty graphs and eye-catching visualizations to snare the unwary who are looking for help…

This is like advocating to get rid of log statements because they might not log the cause of the next bug.

No, it's like advocating to get rid of log statements because they are like an overflowing sewer of data obscuring and distracting from the real cause of the bug. But you can't even figure out if there's a message in the log because it takes an hour to sort through the firehose of messages you know aren't relevant, but there they are, filling up your logs.

The above goes double if you're running Java and your logs include stacktraces spanning 300 lines.

Re: Notes on the Perfidy of Dashboards

#60
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A dashboard is a way to view multiple disparate metrics in a single place. This is technically correct but doesn't approach anywhere near the criticisms the article has. The deeper questions are: how did those metrics come to be collected, and why? What happened that resulted in those particular metrics being aggregated and displayed they way they are? What questions were being asked at the time the dashboards were…

That's why good dashboards come with Title, subtitle, legend, the X and Y axis, and units. Count of packets denied from source IP, source port, last 4 hours. Average number of requests forwarded to proxy farm, distributed by server, last 7 days vs. same time last month. Who called 2049, last 24 hours.

Great, so I know exactly what I'm looking at. But it's not showing me anything I need to know to figure out why half the company is yelling at the team in Slack that something is terribly broken.
Post reply on HN