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S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

reuters.com

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Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#51

Post by fsflover »

oever wrote: post #22
yuvalr1 wrote: post #19

This is a move on the right direction, and is better than nothing. However, I think that a better move is to force HW platforms (maybe starting at a certain magnitude) to let the users use any software market they desire. This way Apple and Google can continue forcing the apps on their own markets to use their payment systems and "keep the users safe", while the other markets can do whatever they like

I would go further: software should always be optional in any hardware purchase and the price of hardware with software should be higher than the price of the hardware alone. Discount bundles with software + hardware should not be allowed. So no iPhone + iOS or laptop + Windows as one item. Selling hardware and software separately ensures that the hardware can be repurposed with independently sourced software. That g…

So basically what Pine64 is doing.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#52

Post by watwatinthewat »

lunarboy wrote: post #45

This itself I support, but I still think Korea favors its internal tech companies a little too much. One example: my experience using Google in the states is so much better than Kakao maps here, only because Google was barred from collecting geo data. I get a similar feeling that other foreign companies/services fail to stick here not due to inferior technology, but legal barriers.

For sure this bill exists because Google and Apple are in the position rather than Samsung and LG.

Regardless, good if it makes meaningful change.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#53

Post by ericmay »

flavius29663 wrote: post #50
misnome wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dont know a single person outside of the SV bubble who is buying 'mah free market!' argument so prevalent here. Most of the arguments I've seen here, that you are probably classifying under this aspersion, are probably some variant on: - This doesn't look illegal under current (US) laws - New laws to restrict this are hard to write constitutionally (in the US) - If this happens a lot of the good parts of the ecos…

Everything was legal until it wasn't. It was the same for Standard oil before 1911: they said it's all legal to have such a monopoly on oil. For some people at the time, it was obvious this was an unfair advantage on the market, so they fought to make it illegal. It's the same now. Of course Google and Apple mostly respect the laws of the land, but if a large swath of the population/industry thinks they are unfair, t…

The reality is that there's a vocal minority (looks around here) and the vast majority of people couldn't give a shit less.

Not once in my life has my dad, my grandma, or some random friend I met up with at a bar gone "jeez, Apple and Google sure do have a monopoly on pricing in their respective app stores and this harms me as a consumer". Nobody cares. In fact, most people probably think everything is amazing how it is now and don't think there's a problem. Personally, I'm knowledgable enough and I think things are way better now than they might be in a future state where this is changed. I know exactly what is going to happen. They are going to be forced to allow competing app stores (in the case of Apple) and then everybody I know is going to have like 5 stores installed, garbage apps spying and harvesting personal info, and it's going to just be a shit storm of stupid knock-offs, crappy products, and outright theft. There's no way around it and if you don't understand that you're now going to have to fix your grandma's iPhone now because Facebook wasn't on the Apple App Store but was on the whatever App Store you're living in a fantasy bubble where people are even moderately technically literate.

There's just a few disgruntled developers who don't like the rules so they complain loudly, and some billion dollar corporations who can make some money if they win legal cases. Small, but vocal players.

Unfortunately that's how a democracy in a country as large as the United States works. Most people don't care about something so one group can just shout loudly and eventually get their way, even if it is bad for the country as a whole. Then they get entrenched and laws are nearly impossible to repeal now. Then we overcorrect and pass new laws, but then these laws have loopholes or carve out exceptions. /rant

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#54

Post by oshiar53-0 »

oever wrote: post #22
yuvalr1 wrote: post #19

This is a move on the right direction, and is better than nothing. However, I think that a better move is to force HW platforms (maybe starting at a certain magnitude) to let the users use any software market they desire. This way Apple and Google can continue forcing the apps on their own markets to use their payment systems and "keep the users safe", while the other markets can do whatever they like

I would go further: software should always be optional in any hardware purchase and the price of hardware with software should be higher than the price of the hardware alone. Discount bundles with software + hardware should not be allowed. So no iPhone + iOS or laptop + Windows as one item. Selling hardware and software separately ensures that the hardware can be repurposed with independently sourced software. That g…

The real issue here is DRM and nonstandard/undocumented* platform interface (e.g. fixed attestation keys and tamper-protected chips preventing efficient RE work). Even if they manage to comply, competitors (even free software options) would still be locked out of market and the no-OS option would be next to useless to average users.

*edit

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#55

Post by pjmlp »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #4
jefftk wrote: post #3

Based on South Korean parliament records, the amendment bans app store operators with dominant market positions from forcing payment systems on content providers and "inappropriately" delaying the review of, or deleting, mobile contents from app markets. It also allows the South Korean government to require an app market operator to "prevent damage to users and protect the rights and interests of users", probe app ma…

It's clear the days of this oligopoly operating unchallanged are numbered. I dont know a single person outside of the SV bubble who is buying 'mah free market!' argument so prevalent here.

Nope, since it is South Korea, it is obvious Samsung is at play here.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#56

Post by flavius29663 »

ericmay wrote: post #53
flavius29663 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything was legal until it wasn't. It was the same for Standard oil before 1911: they said it's all legal to have such a monopoly on oil. For some people at the time, it was obvious this was an unfair advantage on the market, so they fought to make it illegal. It's the same now. Of course Google and Apple mostly respect the laws of the land, but if a large swath of the population/industry thinks they are unfair, t…

The reality is that there's a vocal minority (looks around here) and the vast majority of people couldn't give a shit less. Not once in my life has my dad, my grandma, or some random friend I met up with at a bar gone "jeez, Apple and Google sure do have a monopoly on pricing in their respective app stores and this harms me as a consumer". Nobody cares. In fact, most people probably think everything is amazing how it…

You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell#Standard_Oil

It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won.

What we have today is a significantly larger momentum against tech monopolies.

Look at some of the practices that brought the case forward:

"An office boy working at the Standard Oil headquarters was given the job of destroying records which included evidence that railroads were giving the company advance information about refiner's shipments.[85] This allowed them to undercut the refiners"

Does that sound familiar? Google knows everything that happens on your phone; and they can just undercut every other successful app if they wish so? Or how Amazon can simply analyze all the sales and create their own version of the successful products?

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#57

Post by mathverse »

lunarboy wrote: post #45

This itself I support, but I still think Korea favors its internal tech companies a little too much. One example: my experience using Google in the states is so much better than Kakao maps here, only because Google was barred from collecting geo data. I get a similar feeling that other foreign companies/services fail to stick here not due to inferior technology, but legal barriers.

Success of South Korea was built on protectionism and dogfooding its companies.It worked for them, it worked for China and again it worked for Singapore.

That pattern is clear and only those incompetent or weak were unable to resist big corporations.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#58

Post by eric-hu »

lunarboy wrote: post #45

This itself I support, but I still think Korea favors its internal tech companies a little too much. One example: my experience using Google in the states is so much better than Kakao maps here, only because Google was barred from collecting geo data. I get a similar feeling that other foreign companies/services fail to stick here not due to inferior technology, but legal barriers.

That particular example is less about protectionism, though I’d agree South Korea does that plenty. SK has laws against exporting map data, for reasons related to their saber rattling neighbor.

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#59

Post by NonContro »

tpmx wrote: post #17
NonContro wrote: post #5

What about Steam? They control 90% of PC gaming and even charge regressive commissions, with higher rates for smaller developers.

Do they really control 90%? This four year old article puts Steam game sales revenue at 13% of the total PC gaming sales revenue (and 18% of digital sales revenue): https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-revenue-2017 Couldn't find any newer stats, but surely it hasn't grown from 13% to 90% in just four years?

According to Tim Sweeney, yes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2020/01/14/epic-games...

"Exclusives have been critical in gaining momentum in the presence of a competitor that began 2019 with more than 90% market share"

Re: S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

#60

Post by ericmay »

flavius29663 wrote: post #56
ericmay wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that there's a vocal minority (looks around here) and the vast majority of people couldn't give a shit less. Not once in my life has my dad, my grandma, or some random friend I met up with at a bar gone "jeez, Apple and Google sure do have a monopoly on pricing in their respective app stores and this harms me as a consumer". Nobody cares. In fact, most people probably think everything is amazing how it…

You should read upon the woman who brought down Standard Oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell#Standard_Oil It was basically a person that took on the largest monopoly in the world, and won. What we have today is a significantly larger momentum against tech monopolies. Look at some of the practices that brought the case forward: "An office boy working at the Standard Oil headquarters was given the job of dest…

I'm not arguing that all tech companies are or are not monopolies. I think Google and Facebook are specifically candidates for anti-trust regulation. But I don't see it with Apple at all, especially around this App Store issue, and I'm not really convinced that Amazon is either.
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