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Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

mg.co.za

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Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#51
post #13

"This would apply even if the case were brought due to the company’s own acts of negligence, fraud or malice." Uh, yeah, no. I fully support my country's stance on this. We simply cannot afford to indemnify an multinational company from their own product.

The vax has been rushed to market and the risk of unpleasant side effects is probably a lot higher than normal.

Throughout the chain of manufacturing, sales and distribution will be a myriad of people with a profit motive, so even if feedback starts to be received that the drug is causing nasty things to happen, the risk of news suppression and continued sale is probably high. E.g., if power goes out at a storage facility and the temperature at which the drug is held exceeds recommended levels, people might still sell it to get their income and avoid blame even though they know the batch has limited usefulness. Pfizer probably has to protect itself from these elements of fraud and / or negligence which are probably exacerbated by the basic risk of the drug's effects and efficacy.

If the drug has been rushed to market, it is probably not only the drug's effects which have been compromised, but the security and integrity of the entire supply chain that will support how, when and where the drug is administered and by whom.

Yes, Pfizer could just package 100 million vials of tap water and send them to SA. However, whether SA was powerless to do something to the co or not as a result of the agreements it had signed, I very much doubt Pfizer would last long after the news of its behaviour reached the rest of the world. I am sure it still needs to ensure that it does the best job it can.

On the other hand, politicians are masters of the blame game and of wriggling out of any agreement. Even if their language does not allow for deniability, circumstances may change so that old agreements are rendered unenforceable.

I have no doubt that if SA (or many other countries) found it to their advantage to not honour their side of the agreement when circumstances allowed, that they would do so - potentially even without raising any spurious reason to do so other than "we don't want to and you can't make us".

So although I find the terms Pfizer negotiated distasteful, I do not blame them.

I do wonder, though, whether their terms are universally the same for all countries they deal with here. I suspect not, because SA does not have the power of USA or China or even Australia. It is far easier to say to SA 'we do not believe you, so give us the rights to your military base as a guarantee' than it is to say this to many other countries.

But, much of the blame for this poor negotiating position rests with SA itself.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#52
post #13

"This would apply even if the case were brought due to the company’s own acts of negligence, fraud or malice." Uh, yeah, no. I fully support my country's stance on this. We simply cannot afford to indemnify an multinational company from their own product.

Then they simply may not sell it. The potential liabilities are gigantic, and the risk calculation may put the equation under water. It's the problem with a lot of medical products, particularly vaccines which are hard for pharma companies to market. But it's made worse in regimes that are either litigious, have little in the way of caps over civil claims, or have Justice Systems which are compromised. South Africa i…

> “South Africa is a very corrupt state, it's just too easy for that system to act in a way that does not have integrity.”

Being a corrupt state does not imply a corrupt legal system. SA’s legal system is based very closely on the UK’s (with some Dutch law and African customary law tweaks thrown in) and is considered to be very good actually. Some legal systems around the world are weakened by lobbying and politically placed judges and there is lack of evidence that this is a problem in the SA legal system.

A recent demonstration of this resilience to corruption is the fact that the courts recently put the ex-president Zuma in jail; someone with a lot of corrupt power.

Besides, protecting yourself against a corrupt legal system with beneficial legal clauses just doesn’t make sense. Why even use a contract at all if you don’t believe in the legal system? They put those clauses in there precisely because the legal system is good and they will be held to account.

No, Pfizer is just being a bully because they think they can get away with it. Same thing happens every day when individuals feel trapped into signing unfavourable employment contracts because they are too far along and feel that there are no reasonable alternatives. I think that it’s a good thing that this generated bad PR for Pfizer.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link: > By 1999 the average claim took two years to resolve, and 42% of resolved claims were awarded compensation, as compared with 23% for medical malpractice claims through the tort system. That doesn’t seem like “very little”. Or do you mean the amount paid out for successful claims is lower than in regular court?

I'm referring to the cost of healthcare in the U.S. compared to the awarded amount. If serious health effects exist I assume the care will exceed the amount awarded.

The average awarded amount per case, depending on the year, is between $250k and $1m. Considering this is the average of hundreds of cases there must awards significantly above this for those who have serious health effects.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#54

There was twitter thread with leaked PFIZER MANUFACTURING AND SUPPLY AGREEMENT https://twitter.com/eh_den/status/1419653002818990085 . the contents of the tweet details are now deleted but i found tweets backup at https://australianvoice.livejournal.com/54777.html

Interesting read, but the website author is a bit wacky and conspiratorial.

"If you were wondering why Ivermectin was suppressed..."

As someone who has a been party to a contract like this, not much of it is all that unusual.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#55
post #46
post #23

That is such a fertile ground for anti-vaxxers. Number one argument I hear is “If vaccines are so safe, why does nobody take responsibility for the side-effects?”. And to some extent, they’re right, you know. I bet pharma execs are walking away with six-seven figure bonuses no matter what.

> “If vaccines are so safe, why does nobody take responsibility for the side-effects?” Well in the case of the current one, it's because we really, really want them and the governments of the countries buying them are happy to waive liability in this case to combat a pandemic that's killed about 4 million people round the world. Pharma companies that have managed to create something so useful in such a short time and…

Pharma does deserve to do well in case they accept responsibility. But if they say “hey, if we screw up you’re paying for it”, that’s just having all the good stuff without any risk.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#56
post #23

That is such a fertile ground for anti-vaxxers. Number one argument I hear is “If vaccines are so safe, why does nobody take responsibility for the side-effects?”. And to some extent, they’re right, you know. I bet pharma execs are walking away with six-seven figure bonuses no matter what.

> Number one argument I hear is “If vaccines are so safe, why does nobody take responsibility for the side-effects?”. And to some extent, they’re right, you know. Aren't people saying the government does compensate people who experience side effects? https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

The government might compensate, but people don’t trust a vaccine if the manufacturer isn’t willing to accept the responsibility.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#57
post #29

Love the fact that a few years ago, Big Pharma, including Pfizer, was the devil for most people, but now that they are providing vaccines and asking for extraordinary measures to be protected from any kind of lawsuit, then everyone is quick to forget their past practices and "swallows the pill" as if nothing ever bad happened with this companies before.

Companies can do good things and simultaneously be criticized for the bad shit they do. Nobody forgot about anything.

why give them a blank check?

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#58
post #55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “If vaccines are so safe, why does nobody take responsibility for the side-effects?” Well in the case of the current one, it's because we really, really want them and the governments of the countries buying them are happy to waive liability in this case to combat a pandemic that's killed about 4 million people round the world. Pharma companies that have managed to create something so useful in such a short time and…

Pharma does deserve to do well in case they accept responsibility. But if they say “hey, if we screw up you’re paying for it”, that’s just having all the good stuff without any risk.

There was still the risk of doing the research without having an outcome, or an issue in manufacturing causing them to not meet demand.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#59
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and the reason why vaccine injury funds were developed are: "It was created in the 1980s, after lawsuits against vaccine companies and health care providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce U.S. vaccination rates, which could have caused a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases." https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

based lol, these are our role models

Not sure what you mean here. Yes, these are great public health role models: the establishment of this indemnity was a brilliant public health move.

Re: Pfizer backs down over ‘unreasonable’ terms in South Africa vaccine deal

#60
post #40
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure this is the case in the UK too - Pfizer basically immune from any claims resulting from side effects etc.

So they can focus in continue saving millions of lives since December, providing a solution that works in a record short amount of time. It seems a fair deal for society

>So they can focus in continue saving millions of lives since December

Not sure. Are the researchers working on the vaccine are the one handling the claims? I mean, whats this thing about "focusing on saving lives" got to do with being not responsible for the product?

>It seems a fair deal for society

Only if these companies act in good faith. Knowing what we know about Pharmaceutical companies, It is beyond me why anyone would think they would..

If you said that "we were desperate so we have to take the risk of them possibly behaving bad", then it would have made much more sense.

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