Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion • Hacker News Board

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#51

Post by hinkley » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

pythko wrote: post #40

hourislate wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible that an outlier, an amateur, a lone wolf, was able for a moment to draw the strength and determination that would lead to victory and not even the best in the world stood a chance. Of is as you say....she was lucky and her victory was just a series of unfortunate circumstances for the other riders. I want to believe that there was no one that day that could beat her.

It would be nice to believe, but when second place celebrates like she won says she wasn't aware of a rider up the road, it's not just not the story today. Perhaps if they had known and chased, Kiesenhofer still would have been able to hold them off, but we'll never know. I also wouldn't call the rest of the peloton "unfortunate." They knew keeping track of the breakaway would be especially important given the lack o…

If you can manage to pull away when the front of the pack is dominated by people with no chance, then it can be hard to catch. Part of the chess match in cycling is keeping your friends close but your enemies closer. If you can catch a draft off of the person making a break, you burn far less energy than they do. If you’re trying to reel them in then you’ve won. Otherwise if you can’t beat em, join em.

This is why relative unknowns often break away. Especially as a professional. Nobody was watching Pedro Noname, but now the sponsors and recruiters know his name. Even if he doesn’t win, he’s gotten a good story and better prospects.

In this case it sounds like communication was bad and so if you didn’t see her break away then some people didn’t know she was gone. Or vastly underestimated her.

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#52

Post by spodek » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

pythko wrote: post #18

Some additional context for those who don't follow professional cycling: the Dutch women's team was incredibly strong coming into this road race. All 4 riders on their team are stars in their own right, and the only reason there wasn't a clear favorite for the race overall is that people weren't sure which Dutch rider would win. So you have a complicated group dynamic, where the majority of the peloton has no interes…

> All credit to her for an extremely strong ride.

And a better strategy, which is a major part of competition. People commenting on her being lucky. She had a better strategy.

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#53

Post by localhost » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

pythko wrote: post #18

Some additional context for those who don't follow professional cycling: the Dutch women's team was incredibly strong coming into this road race. All 4 riders on their team are stars in their own right, and the only reason there wasn't a clear favorite for the race overall is that people weren't sure which Dutch rider would win. So you have a complicated group dynamic, where the majority of the peloton has no interes…

If you’re interested in learning more, the Lanterne Rouge podcast has an excellent recap of today’s race: https://youtu.be/uKXX_3GKZWE

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#54

Post by acdha » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

Ostrogodsky wrote: post #43

acdha wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not like men don’t make errors, even at this level – the entire point is pushing people to their absolute limit. The more interesting lesson for anyone not peddling an agenda is the importance of training exactly as the main event will happen – national teams usually have limited experience together and not having radios meant that the riders were guessing about details they normally know far more precisely.

It is obvious you know nothing about cycling. No peloton worth its salt will let a breakaway rider to march all the way long to gold totally unopposed and even worst, without being aware of it. This does not happen even at amateur or very young categories. To the people downvoting me, you cannot wish reality away. But by all means continue living in your fantasy world.

Totally unopposed, except for the part where they caught 2 of the 3 riders? Nobody is arguing that it wasn’t an error but that happens regularly — everyone is making strategic and tactical decisions while riding at a high fraction of their maximum heart rate, and there was clearly a communications breakdown based on the claim that Van Vleuten and Van der Breggen had been told that Plichta was the last. Mistakes under pressure are not gender-specific.

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#55

Post by mkurz » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

Quarrel wrote: post #4

This is incredible, but some of the headlines of "amateur wins gold versus pros" are a little misleading. She was with a pro-team, she is the current Austrian time-trial champion and had devoted herself to making this happen over the pandemic. Meanwhile the Dutch World Champion didn't know she was ahead, so didn't chase her. I love the story, but it isn't a simple amateur beating out all the pros story.

> She was with a pro-team

Only in 2017. She quit a Belgian pro-team shortly after she joined [1]. Quote from the linked article: "I noticed that professional sport is too much physical and psychological stress for me and that I prefer to only do hobby sport"

> but it isn't a simple amateur beating out all the pros story.

IMHO she probably is not really just an amateur, but also not a pro. I mean, she is 30, doing her post-doc at EPFL Lausanne right now... It's not like training is the only thing she spends her time with. Also not sure if she has sponsors.

And to everyone here on HN saying that the Dutch riders didn't know there was someone in front: These are professional athletes, competing at the olympics. If the Dutch's claim is true, it's their own fault. Knowing who is/how many are in front is part of the game. And they lost that game. Also Kiesenhofer was ahead 1:15 minutes. It's not like that's nothing. Even if the Dutch would have chased her, is it sure they would have beaten her? I am not sure...

The point being: Kiesenhofer won, no matter what.

[1] https://sport.orf.at/tokyo2020/stories/3081410

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#56

Post by hinkley » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

pythko wrote: post #50

hinkley wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On nearly level terrain the peloton has a distinct aerodynamic advantage that lets them reel in most people who are just having a good day. People try it anyway and hope for bad luck, or leverage time bonuses if the rules allow it. Big groups on a downhill are dangerous, on an uphill are too hot and cramped and so in both cases individual skill and power are outsized. If a technical downhill racer can break away on t…

> The worst for me is when they catch the breakaway mere miles from the finish line. Sometimes a person stays away all day only to end up finishing in the group, or at least beaten by all the sprinters. Yeah, this is why I (and most others, I believe) find most of the sprint stages in the Tour pretty boring. The break vs. peloton dynamic is critical for road races to work (e.g. if there's no one up the road, why don'…

When they added the time bonus to the point system I was not sure it was a good thing. But sometimes a third place climbed to second or first cemented a bigger lead by staying out front for 2/3 of the race and then finishing with the pack. Especially if they could pull it off twice

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#57

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #8

polote wrote: post #3

"After Shapira and Plichta were caught by the remainder of the peloton the rest of the riders seemed to believe that they were racing amongst themselves for Gold, unaware that Kiesenhofer was still in front." Not saying she shouldn't had won, but when nobody is pursuing you, it is much easier to win. We have seen in the men race that even when people know there is one person in front, 80% of the riders prefer not to…

The road race at the Olympics is somewhat of an outlier in cycling. It uses national teams as opposed to commerical teams, so riders ride with unfamilar teammates, and in this case the biggest favorites were actually teammates. It also bans radios, so there's no direct communication between the coaches and the riders possible.

I didn't see this race yet, and although I enjoy watching it I'm no expert on road cycling. However, ISTR that in every televised race there is a particular motorcycle that stays with the lead rider(s). If a racer thinks she's on the front and doesn't see that motorcycle around somewhere, shouldn't she reconsider her position?

Also the racers who had been on the breakaway and got caught knew she was still up there, but they might not have cared to tell anyone about it.

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#58

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #31

_Microft wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why would this be interesting in this context? (Edit: check the follow-up comments to see why I wasn't as surprised as others about Ms. Kiesenhofer being both sportswomen and active academic and therefore did not make the connection with Mr. Turing immediately)

It’s super rare to be intellectually gifted and a world-class athlete. There was an NFL offensive lineman with a published mathematical paper as well, but I didn’t know about Turing’s physical talents until now. I don’t know of any other instances of brilliant people being paid or awarded medals for their physical abilities, so I personally found it interesting. I guess the parent comment was for those of us that wer…

[deleted]

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#59

Post by enriquto » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

sdenton4 wrote: post #48

mikeyouse wrote: post #5

Seems she's a PhD who studies Partial Differential Equations. Her post-doc research institution is understandably proud: https://actu.epfl.ch/news/epfl-scientist-wins-cycling-gold-m...

This was what I came into the comments to find out! I like that the faculty is 'celebrating her result,' a phrase we often use for new discoveries and theorems, rather than race placements. I got excited when I saw 'Catalan' in the original article, but, sadly, as she's in PDE research, she's merely from Catalan, not studying Catalan numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_number

> I got excited when I saw 'Catalan' in the original article, but, sadly, as she's in PDE research, she's merely (...)

angry Catalan noises

I'm really happy for her, she did her PhD at my alma mater, in a rather well-known lab. Here's one of the main papers leading to the doctorate: https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.02605

Re: Anna Kiesenhofer: Mathematician, amateur cyclist, Olympic champion

#60

Post by hinkley » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #27

polote wrote: post #3

"After Shapira and Plichta were caught by the remainder of the peloton the rest of the riders seemed to believe that they were racing amongst themselves for Gold, unaware that Kiesenhofer was still in front." Not saying she shouldn't had won, but when nobody is pursuing you, it is much easier to win. We have seen in the men race that even when people know there is one person in front, 80% of the riders prefer not to…

No, the rules are pretty simple. The one who manages to first cross the finish line wins. Everybody knows the rules. The problem is it is not a very simple sport and there is some game theory involved. Riding as fast as possible is not the best strategy, actually it is pretty poor one. The better strategy comes from understanding you don't need to win by a lot, winning by 1s is the same as winning by 10 minutes. Also…

In professional cycling the Ride as Hard as You Can people are necessary but often don’t achieve any real rank on the team. They might not even finish a tour, either having not budgeted enough for the late stages, or being so new that they can’t understand how tired they’re gonna be later.

Their claim to fame may be limited to being on the top team, it might be being on a top 5 team. If you’re lucky you team may place several people in the top 10. If you’re their hedge against the captain being injured, that might even be your name in seventh place.

Lemond is famous in small part for being number #2 to Bernard Hinault and feeling it should have been him on the podium.

But Lemond is the classic case of the unreliable captain. He was like a race horse. On a good day he was like the wind. But a stiff breeze could lay him up. He lamented the Hinault situation but illness stopped him from winning two others. And then that goddamned duck hunting trip… (I met him a few years later, he did a signing at a bike shop owned by a friend… who he as going to go duck hunting with the next day. I so wanted to ask him why he was crazy.)

I never felt he had the sort of lieutenants that Armstrong enjoyed, the way he was to Hinault. I’m racking my brain trying to remember who was on Delgado’s team and coming up completely blank. But I think that just proves my point.