Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 146 posts

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#51

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Some notes:

First, these guys are the real hackers. Not Carmack, Woz, Bill, or Zuck, or all the super-cool guys that made the bucks and then coasted (technically). These guys are living the life just because they love it. They're a much better representation of the inner hacker in all of us than those stories of riches and fame. I got the impression they would continue doing this no matter what their financial circumstances.

Second, they've done their time. Somebody should set them up with an annuity so they can a) continue, b) learn to live without worrying about money, and c) tell stories to kids 40 years from now about how it all came together

Third, this article left me gobsmacked. I'm left with one conclusion: this is art. If you're collecting these crayon receipts? Save them. They're going to be worth something one day.

Of course, just like the game plays out, it might all amount to nothing. If I had to bet about the value of their work, I'd say it drops off short-term (next 20 years) then becomes super valuable around 2030 or so. This seems to be the pattern with semi-famous labors of love with cult followings. Seriously. Save whatever you can get from these guys.

Very cool story.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#52

Post by jokermatt999 »

astrofinch wrote: post #49
jokermatt999 wrote: post #38

If you're ever worried that a feature will be too complex to implement, take a look at the ridiculous number of things Dwarf Fortress keeps track of and simulates some time. The article briefly touches on it, but like any look at Dwarf Fortress, it bared dips its toes in the water. Just a quick list off the top of my head... In world gen, it simulates geology and erosion, climate/biomes, growing civilizations, politi…

I wonder what techniques Tarn uses to manage that complexity. Does he write extremely clean code? Use test-driven development?

From what I've heard, not really. He tests a lot (he posts about it on the devlog), but I've heard he doesn't use version control even.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#53

Post by joshu »

idonthack wrote: post #37
joshu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

freakishly, the game actually uses opengl to display the grid of character sprites...

there's an ncurses mode in the linux version. i use it to play over ssh, as my laptop is weak. the opengl is mainly for tileset support.

Oh god there is a Linux version now? Which means I can play it under screen? or from my iPad?

Thanks, there goes all my free time.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#54

Post by johnnyjustice »

Hostile wrote: post #43
jgfoot wrote: post #13

Very interesting: "Tarn sees his work in stridently ethical terms. He calls games like Angry Birds or Bejeweled, which ensnare players in addictive loops of frustration and gratification under the pretense that skill is required to win, 'abusive' -- a common diagnosis among those who get hooked on the games, but a surprising one from a game designer, ostensibly charged with doing the hooking. 'Many popular games tap…

Completely agree with Tarn. I would go further, and describe certain types of games as evil. Social games, in particular, I believe have evil game design. Here's an interview with the somewhat controversial but always interesting game designer Jonathan Blow: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/02/15/jonathan-blow-interview-so... In the second half, he talks about social game design. I'm very much with him on this.

Hostile, thank you for posting this, Do you think that any other designers are like him?

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#56

Post by angrycoder »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #51

Some notes: First, these guys are the real hackers. Not Carmack, Woz, Bill, or Zuck, or all the super-cool guys that made the bucks and then coasted (technically). These guys are living the life just because they love it. They're a much better representation of the inner hacker in all of us than those stories of riches and fame. I got the impression they would continue doing this no matter what their financial circum…

I don't know where you are coming from saying Carmack 'coasted (technically)' after he made his bucks. He is about a hard core coder as they come. Its not like he took some CEO desk job after Doom came out. From the first commander keen all the way through probably Quake 3, the stuff he wrote was all cutting edge.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#57

Post by v21 »

johnnyjustice wrote: post #54
Hostile wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree with Tarn. I would go further, and describe certain types of games as evil. Social games, in particular, I believe have evil game design. Here's an interview with the somewhat controversial but always interesting game designer Jonathan Blow: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/02/15/jonathan-blow-interview-so... In the second half, he talks about social game design. I'm very much with him on this.

Hostile, thank you for posting this, Do you think that any other designers are like him?

I'm an indie game designer, and I find this is by no means an uncommon view among game designers.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#58

Post by DanielBMarkham »

angrycoder wrote: post #56
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #51

Some notes: First, these guys are the real hackers. Not Carmack, Woz, Bill, or Zuck, or all the super-cool guys that made the bucks and then coasted (technically). These guys are living the life just because they love it. They're a much better representation of the inner hacker in all of us than those stories of riches and fame. I got the impression they would continue doing this no matter what their financial circum…

I don't know where you are coming from saying Carmack 'coasted (technically)' after he made his bucks. He is about a hard core coder as they come. Its not like he took some CEO desk job after Doom came out. From the first commander keen all the way through probably Quake 3, the stuff he wrote was all cutting edge.

My point was, from a "how well-known are they" standpoint, these other guys earn a lot more points for just being rich and famous than they do for being great hackers.

No doubt many of them continue to do great technical work that constitutes "great hacking" in anybody's book. But that's not why (by and large) people buy the books and become fans.

If you are focusing on the technical skill of hackery then you are going down the wrong trail. I'm talking about living the life of hacking, as most hackers understand and would actually practice it, as opposed to being a famous hacker. Let's face it, odds are you'll never be a billionaire with your own rocket company. But you just might spend 20 years of your life working on a pet project. These guys are our guys. They're us.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#59

Post by NickPollard »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #58
angrycoder wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you are coming from saying Carmack 'coasted (technically)' after he made his bucks. He is about a hard core coder as they come. Its not like he took some CEO desk job after Doom came out. From the first commander keen all the way through probably Quake 3, the stuff he wrote was all cutting edge.

My point was, from a "how well-known are they" standpoint, these other guys earn a lot more points for just being rich and famous than they do for being great hackers. No doubt many of them continue to do great technical work that constitutes "great hacking" in anybody's book. But that's not why (by and large) people buy the books and become fans. If you are focusing on the technical skill of hackery then you are goi…

Whilst I get where you're coming from, to me you are falling into the 'mainstream can't be cool' point of view. Just because someone is successful and rich doesn't mean they can't be judged on what they do anymore.

In some respects, I think that continuing to do what you love even after you have 'fuck you money' is one of the strongest indicators of a persons passions. Carmack could have stopped programming games years ago, yet he continues to innovate and push boundaries. For him, the rocket company IS his pet project and is just as brilliant an example of hacking as anything else. Both Gates and Jobs could have retired to a private island (or even private archipelago) years ago, instead both continued to work at their passions long past necessary. And now Gates has a new pet project, it just happens to have a lot more money and publicity than Dwarf Fortress.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#60

Post by jemfinch »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #51

Some notes: First, these guys are the real hackers. Not Carmack, Woz, Bill, or Zuck, or all the super-cool guys that made the bucks and then coasted (technically). These guys are living the life just because they love it. They're a much better representation of the inner hacker in all of us than those stories of riches and fame. I got the impression they would continue doing this no matter what their financial circum…

I wish I could have ignored you saying that John Carmack is not a real hacker, but I couldn't.

Carmack has consistently pushed forward multiple industries on multiple fronts, and remains to this day a far better programmer than any I've ever worked with. He revolutionized computer gaming while living the life just because he loves it. He's not famous because he has Ferraris; his Ferraris are famous because they're his.

He doesn't need anyone to set him up with an annuity--maybe because his love was more mainstream than theirs, or maybe because his skill was far greater than theirs--but that in no way diminishes what he has accomplished or his motivations for accomplishing it.

Post reply on HN