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Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

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Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#51

Post by seahawks78 »

qnsi wrote: post #30

I worked at a company that was working on this. I left because of ethical reasons. >Workers living from pay check to pay check have traditionally been vulnerable to exploitation And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes…

We need universal basic income (UBI)! Period. I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses. Furthermore, Payflow should be integrated with the government UBI program so that anyone can withdraw money against it similar to what is being done now. This will go a long way in solving the Payday problems/worker exploitation issues as mentioned above.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#52

Post by gruez »

seahawks78 wrote: post #51
qnsi wrote: post #30

I worked at a company that was working on this. I left because of ethical reasons. >Workers living from pay check to pay check have traditionally been vulnerable to exploitation And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes…

We need universal basic income (UBI)! Period. I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses. Furthermore, Payflow should be integrated with the government UBI program so that anyone can withdraw money against it similar to what is being done now. This will go a long way in solving the Payday problems/worker exploitation issues as mention…

>I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses

$5000? The median pre-tax income in the US is only $2854/month. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#53

Post by scarby2 »

seahawks78 wrote: post #51
qnsi wrote: post #30

I worked at a company that was working on this. I left because of ethical reasons. >Workers living from pay check to pay check have traditionally been vulnerable to exploitation And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes…

We need universal basic income (UBI)! Period. I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses. Furthermore, Payflow should be integrated with the government UBI program so that anyone can withdraw money against it similar to what is being done now. This will go a long way in solving the Payday problems/worker exploitation issues as mention…

You have to be very careful with ubi (which I'm a huge fan of btw.), it could cause hyperinflation, probably would at $5k a month, because we have a pretty severe housing shortage there's going to be a whole bunch of people with an extra $5k that they could spend on housing so average rent may rise significantly.

Instead of jumping to straight UBI we need to build an abundance of housing that is of good quality, affordable to build, is operated by the state and is available to everyone regardless of income on a cost plus model. Also given that rent is most people's single biggest expense we could take the pressure off the poor. This plan however is politically untenable as affordable housing is something that anyone who owes money on their home does not want

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#54

Post by scarby2 »

gruez wrote: post #52
seahawks78 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need universal basic income (UBI)! Period. I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses. Furthermore, Payflow should be integrated with the government UBI program so that anyone can withdraw money against it similar to what is being done now. This will go a long way in solving the Payday problems/worker exploitation issues as mention…

>I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses $5000? The median pre-tax income in the US is only $2854/month. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

> $5000? The median pre-tax income in the US is only $2854/month. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

Op is probably in NY or SF where that doesn't even make you middle class and people who make double that still don't feel rich. $2854 a month would be absolute poverty wages in many parts of the country.

Conversely my company has announced it's not going back to the office ever. I'm tempted to go back to Tennessee where I can live live a king on my California middle class income.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#55

Post by hpkuarg »

gruez wrote: post #52
seahawks78 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need universal basic income (UBI)! Period. I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses. Furthermore, Payflow should be integrated with the government UBI program so that anyone can withdraw money against it similar to what is being done now. This will go a long way in solving the Payday problems/worker exploitation issues as mention…

>I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses $5000? The median pre-tax income in the US is only $2854/month. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

Yeah, $5k a month for "basic expenses" is beyond ridiculous.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#56

Post by lolinder »

asukhwani wrote: post #32
andrewingram wrote: post #8

It's a great problem to solve, and killing the payday loan industry is a good thing to do. Out of curiosity, why is the app UI and feature set practically identical to Wagestream (I worked there last year, so i'm pretty familiar with it)?

Interesting observation! There are 100+ startups in the world trying to help with on-demand pay! Most of them have a very similar UX/UI.

Below are the top few products that turn up in a Google search for "on-demand pay". None have the circle-focused branding that you copied from Wagestream, and none (except Payflow) are synonyms for Wagestream.

A suggestion: you seem to recognize that it's too late to deny that you copied Wagestream's branding wholesale. Commenting repeatedly on this thread implicitly acknowledging the fact while not addressing it head on is not a good look.

* https://www.dailypay.com/

* https://www.ceridian.com/products/dayforce/payroll/on-demand...

* https://www.paylocity.com/our-products/payroll/on-demand-pay...

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#57

Post by seahawks78 »

hpkuarg wrote: post #55
gruez wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe that in a country like US every working adult (18 - 64) should get a minimum of 5k a month for paying basic expenses $5000? The median pre-tax income in the US is only $2854/month. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

Yeah, $5k a month for "basic expenses" is beyond ridiculous.

I don't think it is especially if you are living in one of metro regions/tech hubs i.e. SF Bay area, Seattle, NYC etc.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#58

Post by SimonPStevens »

This still seems no different from giving the employee a payday loan (admittedly at zero percent interest).

It's not going to solve anything because they are just taking money early that they will need next month.

It might seem attractive initially, but within a few months the status quo will have reset and those employees who were living paycheck to paycheck will still be living paycheck to paycheck, just now it will be day by day waiting for their accrued amount to increase.

I suspect as a company you could do well, but you aren't solving any problems for the employee. And you may find that as business pressure increases you'll end up exploiting them in some way because they are vulnerable and have little protection. It won't be long before someone on your board says something like "hey, we could make a bit more money if we start charging x% interest to get early access pay they won't accrue until next month. That's fair because we're taking the risk they might not accrue it all." And before you know it you are just as bad as every other payday lender out there.

This unexpected expenses thing sounds like poor justification to me.

And charging the company Vs the employee is no different. If you didn't charge the company they could instead increase the wages of their staff by the equivalent amount. You are just taking money out of the potential pot that goes to the staff. Staff costs is just a single line on our summary p&l which includes salaries and benefits.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#59

Post by lolinder »

ck_one wrote: post #14
nathancahill wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you aren't kidding. Even the copy on the landing page is a Spanish translation of Wagestream's landing page.

What exactly is the same? I just checked and they look different.

In addition to the app screenshots mentioned by a sibling, look at the marketing materials. Many of the headers are a translation of Wagestream's headers, and the branding is all focused around circles in much the same way (most obviously in the app screenshots, but they both re-use the image of the circular slider in multiple places on the page).

To top it off, Payflow is a (near) synonym for Wagestream.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#60

Post by Grustaf »

asukhwani wrote: post #43
Grustaf wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t you worry that easy access to credit will exacerbate the problem, leading people ever deeper in depth?

Our average user in Spain withdraws 50$, but their monthly salary is >1,000$. We also regularly survey users to see chat reasons they make withdrawals for. Our conclusion is users are taking small portions of their salary to cover unexpected expenses. Users tell us they love this, because otherwise they would have had to ask a friend for money.

In that case, wouldn’t the real solution to their plight be to learn to save money?

I know that is part of your offering, but your main product contradicts it completely, doesn’t it?

Easy borrowing does not seem to promote saving.

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