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Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

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Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#51

Post by vaidhy »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #2

It's a marshmallow test on a national scale. You're a public institution and the taxpayer gives you a marshmallow with the expectation of using it to create some public good. You can eat the whole marshmallow yourself and feel pretty good for a while, but after that you'll have nothing but a heap of dirt (and soon that heap will be washed into the sea). You can take a bite for yourself and get a dysfunctional society…

If you nibble a little on the edge, while eating everyone else who have saved it around the table, you get the western society. Haiti and DR got theirs eaten by France and Spain.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#52

Post by heymijo »

I responded to a now flagged comment. The gist of that comment is that it's worth knowing Haiti's history.

> There is LOTS of context missing before we get to the 1804 massacre of the remaining whites in Haiti.

Thirteen years of conflict and war took place before this happened. Why? Enslaved people wanted what the French Declaration of the Rights of Man guaranteed, that "all men free and equal."

In struggling for this Haitians were bounced around like a football, between the great powers of France, Spain, and Britain.

Every attempt at autonomy or freedom was met with outright force or duplicity aimed at returning Haiti to the status quo of one of the most brutal forms of slavery in history.

What's the saying? Fool me once...

Dessalines, who ordered the 1804 massacre, had seen all of this, topped off by the French just a few years before taking out Toussaint Louverture, who was forgiving of whites.

He had also seen brutality the likes of which we cannot imagine:

"the French staged mass executions via firing squads, hanging, and drowning Haitians in bags:

"Rochambeau invented a new means of mass execution, which he called "fumigational-sulphurous baths": killing hundreds of Haitians in the holds of ships by burning sulphur to make sulphur dioxide to gas them."

Should you still think the Haitians more brutal than others, do read up on the British and French exploits in continental Europe during the Peninsular Wars. God help you should you find yourself a non-combatant in a place just taken by siege.

Haiti was born in brutal slavery. It has been meddled with incessantly throughout its history by greater powers. If we want to trace a line back, those are the dots to look at connecting.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#53

Post by heymijo »

heymijo wrote: post #52

I responded to a now flagged comment. The gist of that comment is that it's worth knowing Haiti's history. > There is LOTS of context missing before we get to the 1804 massacre of the remaining whites in Haiti. Thirteen years of conflict and war took place before this happened. Why? Enslaved people wanted what the French Declaration of the Rights of Man guaranteed, that "all men free and equal." In struggling for thi…

BoiledCabbage also had a now buried reply with more context:

> Exactly this. To discuss Toussaint and 1804 and not discuss the French commander Rochambeau is extremely misleading. He brought gas chambers to Haiti via and was systematically massacring blacks. The entire war turned brutal.

Haiti knew trade was key as they were the wealthiest colony in the west. Toussaint actually negotiated treaties with John Adams and welcomed American investment and trade deals along with other nations. What happened (and again Haiti perspectives comes in to play of who was writing history and what gets emphasized), was a nation of slave gaining independence and defeating Napoleon in military combat. That absolutely shocked the European powers. They were all slave holding counties and their immediate acts was to stop Haiti from succeeding at all costs.

In the US Thomas Jefferson took over, and being a southern pro-plavery president he immediately blocked all trade with Haiti knowing that the colony depended on trade to survive financially. France as well planned to essentially starve the country economically and take it back over later. The entire western powers effectively put the country under embargo. They were deathly afraid it would inspire other slave areas to want freedom (lots of texts written about this) and the way they decided to stop it was to ensure Haiti fails as a country.

The fighting in that war for independence was brutal and ugly on all sides. Toussaint was a brilliant leader and likely would've taken the country to success. He beat what were considered to European armies is the time. Final after winning again against the French, they invited him to "parley" and when he came for the discussion they captured him and threw him in a prison where he died. They could not beat him and finally that was his they stopped him. For diplomatic negotiation and the capture. And that was maybe the third back stab by the European powers at the time. He was the father of Haiti, their George Washington.

His replacement is the one who never forgave that and who militarily was against Rochembeau and who was after this betrayal we no longer want any Europeans here. Previously the British betrayed them, said they'd fight with with against France to end slavery. They agreed - allied with the British and then a the hatians they took all the militarily losses and handed territory to the British to be British free colonies the British came in and started enslaving the Haitians again.

The period of that time is insanely complex. All of a sudden I've seen the narrative of OP being pushed everywhere. Because it's "easy" and people can think of Zimbabwe as an easy analogy - that's wrong. And frequently people pushing it then turn it into discussions of current US politics. [And that's where I'll stop because I don't want this to start down that trail]. What went on in Haiti is way more complex than that simplistic narrative.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#54

Post by Tabular-Iceberg »

vaidhy wrote: post #51
Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #2

It's a marshmallow test on a national scale. You're a public institution and the taxpayer gives you a marshmallow with the expectation of using it to create some public good. You can eat the whole marshmallow yourself and feel pretty good for a while, but after that you'll have nothing but a heap of dirt (and soon that heap will be washed into the sea). You can take a bite for yourself and get a dysfunctional society…

If you nibble a little on the edge, while eating everyone else who have saved it around the table, you get the western society. Haiti and DR got theirs eaten by France and Spain.

Exploitative colonialism and multinational corporations are definitely things that exist, but countries that do neither still manage to produce a high standard of living by having low levels of corruption. This is what all countries with high standard of living has in common, not stealing from other countries.

Besides, such exploitation doesn't even help the standard of living in the home countries anyway, since the profits are more likely to be stashed in offshore accounts or reinvested in more of the same shenanigans, rather than be invested in the home economy.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#55

Post by Tabular-Iceberg »

breezylex wrote: post #46
K0balt wrote: post #25

As an American expat who has lives on Hispaniola for more than a decade, I have a pretty strong opinion on this. I can’t be sure how much of this is casual and how much is symptomatic, but I I strongly believe that the main driver of the -current outlook- is culture. Both Haiti and the Dominican Republic are majority slave- descendants. Spanish were inclusive with their culture, tending to extend it to slaves, and Do…

Bingo! I'm Dominican and completely agree with your points. Just to add one important difference as well is that Spaniards converted their slaves into Christianity or Catholicism religion where the French never bothered with institutionalizing their religion to theirs. One of the many reason why Haitians culture gravitates more towards Afro descendant rituals and traditions.

It didn't seem to be for the lack of French missionaries. But for some reason it didn't stick as well. Maybe there was more buy-in from the civil authorities on the Spanish side, thanks to people like Bartolomé de las Casas.

Re: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

#56

Post by BrandoElFollito »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #38
K0balt wrote: post #25

As an American expat who has lives on Hispaniola for more than a decade, I have a pretty strong opinion on this. I can’t be sure how much of this is casual and how much is symptomatic, but I I strongly believe that the main driver of the -current outlook- is culture. Both Haiti and the Dominican Republic are majority slave- descendants. Spanish were inclusive with their culture, tending to extend it to slaves, and Do…

I've never been to either side of Hispaniola, but I have been to Vanuatu and have made the same observation about French colonial culture. I fully expect New Caledonia to go down the same path if it finally gets a yes on the next independence referendum.

Good luck for is survival of it becomes independent.

20% of its budget is cash from France. Its main income is from mining which is in deficit and heavily subventionned by France.

They would need to make the socual security, police etc.

100000 people are expected to leave to France.

A yes would be suicidal.

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