My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#51

Post by eurasiantiger » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:36 AM UTC

bingu wrote: post #44

Zababa wrote: post #21

This is probably a relatively naive observation, but I've found that the way some people describe meditation and how their mind change is sometimes the same as how people describe their experience under psychadelics. These bad side effects of meditation sound a bit like a bad trip, but without being able to tell yourself that it's chemically induced and thus will stop in a few hours.

Yes. From experience I can attest that they are two doors to the same house, so to speak.

Meditation under the influence, on the other hand, is a door to the ocean.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#52

Post by eurasiantiger » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

simiones wrote: post #50

qwerty456127 wrote: post #3

> The terrain of fractured, disruptive and altered states of consciousness has often been explored in Buddhist teachings through the centuries, but when these practices made their journey into Western culture, a sufficient understanding of the downsides of meditation was lost in transit. Why would one go on a serious retreat not led by a real Buddhist teacher? Is there a shortage of geshes already?

How do you tell a real Buddhist teacher from a fake one? What if you are interested in secular meditation and do not believe Buddhism or other religions are truthful?

Buddhism is not a religion per se. I’m sure there are cults around it, but as Dalai Lama put it: if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion.

If you require more proof, make it a priority to seek understanding of ”Buddha-nature”.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#53

Post by addicted » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #26

(background: I have been doing zen meditation for 20 years. Several hours per day and participated in 50 intensive retreats or so). Absolutely. If you meditate so much that it starts to work, it's like any effective medicine or treatment. It has potential for adversarial side effects. Even mentally healthy people get into some crazy states and can experience meltdowns while meditating. I have seen several cases of pe…

This is key. Meditation is not a substitute for therapy or professional mental health of any sort.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#54

Post by emoII » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

arcturus17 wrote: post #31

rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

Thanks for the summary. Not the first time I hear about these negative side effects, but every time I’m reminded of the possibility I’m surprised. It also reminds me however that my meditation practice is infinitely shallower than what people suffering negative consequences describe. There was a time where I would practice very rigorously (for me at least) and all I can remember is that I felt more empathy and emotio…

> It also reminds me however that my meditation practice is infinitely shallower than what people suffering negative consequences describe.

Actually, the author describe people having similar negative experiences just from dabbling with meditation apps, so the catalyst is not necessarily a 14-day silent retreat, but rather something more intangible, in which case it could happen to anyone, really

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#55

Post by mapcars » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #26

(background: I have been doing zen meditation for 20 years. Several hours per day and participated in 50 intensive retreats or so). Absolutely. If you meditate so much that it starts to work, it's like any effective medicine or treatment. It has potential for adversarial side effects. Even mentally healthy people get into some crazy states and can experience meltdowns while meditating. I have seen several cases of pe…

>Many things that are worth doing and give meaning to life are not safe.

That sounds wrong to me, meditation is supposed to destroy all meanings of life, not to give anything. Also doing or not doing anything at all is not safe. There is no safety - once we are alive we will die.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#56

Post by Nursie » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #25

> When Buddhism Goes Bad - How My Mindfulness Practice Led Me To Meltdown Well, meditation and buddhism are supposed to be a way of life, not a stress reliever or a passtime. You can't be living like a modern westerner in the rat race and do buddhism on the side (or merely try to half-follow some general tenets in your everyday totally non-bhudist life). Or rather you can, and thousands do, and there are fancy retrea…

So to your mind this can all be neatly dismissed as "doing it wrong"?

The guy in the article was a teacher himself, not someone just casually dabbling, and mentions that the people studying the negative effects are encountering trainers and teachers more often than casual meditators.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#57

Post by Cthulhu_ » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #21

This is probably a relatively naive observation, but I've found that the way some people describe meditation and how their mind change is sometimes the same as how people describe their experience under psychadelics. These bad side effects of meditation sound a bit like a bad trip, but without being able to tell yourself that it's chemically induced and thus will stop in a few hours.

Definitely, there's more than one way to get to a different state of mind.

Christian religions for example set a certain stage, create an atmosphere that puts people in a shared mental state. Meditative, perhaps. I can see (although never experienced myself) how that, if you let it "in", can lead to a "religious experience" / awakening of sorts.

Worst one was that one time I was in an American evangelical church, the type where there's lots of music and the like. But also weird behaviour; during the sermon, lots of people around me had their hand up and were whispering "jesus", it was eerie as fuck to be honest. That line of churches does a lot with altering brain states though, one article I read mentioned measuring brain waves and seeing them enter an "alpha" state, similar to hypnosis and making people very susceptive to suggestions. Another example is exorcisms, where people go - let themselves go? - into a state of dissociation, speaking in tongues and spasming. I kinda see that as letting their own inhibitions go and letting the impulses take over.

TL;DR not a scientist, just armchair theorizing and waffling.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#58

Post by ganzuul » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:42 AM UTC

We don't really have the language to discuss the subtle emotional states involved when experience turns uncomfortable. Music with movement is better at communicating it.

People are going to keep poking around in their minds and finding things that disturb them. There is a lot to be said for learning to stay with the difficult things, if you can not yet afford yourself faith.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#59

Post by Nursie » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:42 AM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #4

WalterGR wrote: post #2

Actual title: When Buddhism Goes Bad The author was practicing a specific kind of Buddhist meditation while at a 2-week meditation seminar. It sounds like he was meditating most of his waking hours? This is not about “mindfulness” as you probably think of it.

One should meditate always, also also during their sleep. let alone while doing chores, walking and talking. Formal sitting meditation is just a minor part.

And if one does, one may end up with mental health problems.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#60

Post by IG_Semmelweiss » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:42 AM UTC

mlang23 wrote: post #33

> This terrain was fresh. I had never previously experienced a psychotic episode and have no history of mental illness besides occasional bouts of mild anxiety and depression. ... > Why did I start meditating? The short answer is that in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar over some jambalaya, a steamy kiss, and a stray comment I didn’t take fondly. The evening ended hours later after I broke a window…

I agree with your conclusion.

I'd go a step further and state there is no such thing as a bad trip. There are just situations where loss go of control can result in the surfacing of things that are unresolved... and unpleasant. No one has a bad trip without the latter.

Another reason why psychedelics should come with clear warning labels that describe bad outcomes for specific situations.