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Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

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Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#51
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my moral value is based on what I read? If I read the wrong thing I might as well be second-class citizen?

Do you think what a person reads has no predictive value on their 'moral value'? (An admittedly vague term) Trivially: someone who reads NRA's weekly newsletter religiously is more likely to be pro gun, pro republican, and pro 'life', for instance

>Do you think what a person reads has no predictive value on their 'moral value'? (An admittedly vague term)

Yes, 100%. How can it, if we agree all human life is sacred? Are some people more sacred than others? Holier than thou? (getting downvoted for this)

All men are created equal. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Ephesians 6:9 "Slave owners, you must treat your slaves with this same respect. Don't threaten them. They have the same Master in heaven that you do, and he doesn't have favorites."

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#52
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to think of Facebook as the reasonable people in the room. The left wants to own online political discussion in the US, and they are very bothered that the right finds a ready audience when they are allowed to compete.

No one is talking about censoring arguments about what constitutes reasonable levels of immigration, or whether the government is spending too much, or what rights states should have vs federal gov. IE conservative policy positions. The divide is on topics like anti-vax, nonexistent election fraud, et cetera. IE, actual lies.

But that is exactly what happens. 5 billionaires control the majority of online social media content.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#53
post #46

What exactly is the evil that Facebook is supposedly trying to not see? And how would making reach data available make it easier for Facebook to see evil? Or if Facebook is trying to hide the evil, what evil is it they are trying to hide? What will the reach data reveal that is so evil? And if the evil is manifest without reach data, why does it matter?

> What exactly is the evil that Facebook is supposedly trying to not see?

I see that you are new here, this is not Reddit. You should read the linked article before posting, there you can find the answer to this question and others.

Be informed, be polite.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is talking about censoring arguments about what constitutes reasonable levels of immigration, or whether the government is spending too much, or what rights states should have vs federal gov. IE conservative policy positions. The divide is on topics like anti-vax, nonexistent election fraud, et cetera. IE, actual lies.

You mean the recent very secure elections where 120 000 test votes snuck in? The very secure elections that are so secure in some counties that nobody is allowed to verify? I don't think there was substantial election fraud but I must say America keeps trying to convince me otherwise. Couple this with media who is unable or unwilling to tell us what is done to prevent fraud (the only thing I have actually learned was…

The very secure elections that 6 states had to stop counting votes for, at nearly the same time, and leave everyone wondering what was happening for weeks until they got the votes they wanted.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a really insightful way to look at it. I gather you are saying Facebook should not be the one to do the "filtering," but also that it's not ideal for each individual to have to do it themselves. What's the solution?

> What's the solution? The easiest and least problematic is to add friction, which in my fantasies would be to ban sites like Facebook and Twitter outright that provide too-easy access to ready-made audiences of millions. They're basically like handing out loaded guns to a class of first graders playing on a playground. Guns are fine and shouldn't be monopolized by one group or another, but they should also not be in…

Adding friction helps slow down the honest but gullible. But if you have an organized, professional disinformation campaign, they're willing to do the work to push against the friction.

I suppose they count on their gullible followers to multiply their efforts, and hindering that will have an effect, even against organized campaigns, and that's good. But I wonder whether it will make organized campaigns relatively more powerful. If so, that might not be a net win.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the solution? The easiest and least problematic is to add friction, which in my fantasies would be to ban sites like Facebook and Twitter outright that provide too-easy access to ready-made audiences of millions. They're basically like handing out loaded guns to a class of first graders playing on a playground. Guns are fine and shouldn't be monopolized by one group or another, but they should also not be in…

>The easiest and least problematic is to add friction, which in my fantasies would be to ban sites like Facebook and Twitter outright that provide too-easy access to ready-made audiences of millions. They're basically like handing out loaded guns to a class of first graders playing on a playground. Guns are fine and shouldn't be monopolized by one group or another, but they should also not be in the hands of untraine…

> Friction, or training?

Friction.

> In the example of guns, there are SCREENING (not exactly the same as friction) and education/training that many seem to agree are a good solution. Could the same be applied to social media?

Not really. The analogy between guns and social media is not perfect. Training as a solution has special problems with applied to media access that it doesn't have with guns. Specifically, it would probably amount to some kind of indoctrination program. Gun training is a technical topic, like how to drive a car safely.

>> A somewhat less radical form would be to kneecap the ability to share widely on social media sites: no public posts, sharing limited to direct connections (and a cap the number of those to 1000 or something), no features to easily re-share a post outside of its initial audience, get rid of groups, kick out organizations, etc.

> This is again just letting Facebook dictate the solution - not that much different than the unilateral censorship they do.

Actually, that was me dictating a solution to Facebook that stopped short of shutting them down. I'm pretty sure they'd hate to follow it.

And the important difference is that everything I suggested is content neutral, so it can't accurately be called "censorship."

> Seems like this is happening today, and might be a good approach.

Yes, but if it's happening today, I'd bet money it's mostly people who can handle social media relatively well. The problematic people who probably shouldn't have access to a broadcast megaphone are likely still on Facebook and Twitter and are unlikely to leave.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#57

I think the real problem that facebook leadership sees isn't that they're amplifying overly partisan posters, but that the popularity of these posters demonstrates that their userbase is increasingly low rent and heading toward an AOL/Yahoo style long goodbye.

It's frustrating that the discussion around technology's effects on society is still stuck between the extremes of: - "tech has a causal effect on society" - "society has a causal effect on tech, tech is a mirror" At this point it seems pretty patently obvious that the reality is both ? Technology is subject to pre-existing flaws in society, but also has the capability to amplify and worsen it. > the popularity of th…

> Yeah, FB didn't invent partisanship, misinformation, nor authoritarianism, but I think likely it is worsening it.

Absolutely, Zuckerberg is basically a younger, less human version of Rupert Murdoch. He's going where the money takes him, and he's happy to exploit a profitable niche. My point though is that it's increasingly clear that Facebook's audience is becoming just that, an aging niche, and that's not a great place to be for a social media platform. We know what happens to those.

Just like Rupert Murdoch's various tabloids, exposure does indeed affect the consumers of that media, and it becomes an ouroboros of tabloid-type hysteria. I don't think that's what bothers facebook though, just the fact that this type of niche audience is a loser in the long run.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#58
For people that are genuinely interested in this - I'd highly recommend Steven Levy's book: Facebook The Inside Story.

It's a fair account without a political bent (really hard to find on this topic) and he had a lot of access to FB leadership while writing it. It also gives a lot of historical context.

WRT the specific outreach metrics mentioned in the article - I'd bet the internal discussion is more nuanced. Making that public could make it harder for them to control abuse by making it easier for people to determine how to maximize reach with spammier hacks. This is already a problem without access to the data.

My personal opinion is this is a hard problem at scale and that Zuckerberg genuinely cares about it [0]. That there is some incentive mismatch given the issues around engagement driving ad revenue, but that the speech issues are more complicated and Zuck cares about how they leverage their power around issues of speech. My take on the Trump ban was less that he changed his position and more that the US no longer met the requirements for a hands-off approach after the insurrection.

Rather than rehash the stuff I wrote in the post, here's the relevant bit:

> "If there’s to be policy around political speech and social media, it should not be the responsibility of private companies to determine when to censor or not censor the speech from democratically elected politicians, operating in countries with rule of law and a free press.

> "There are a lot of conditions on that statement, but it’s because the conditions are relevant and important. The same standard cannot be automatically held for politicians in non-democratic countries, countries without rule of law, countries that suppress speech themselves, or countries without a free press."

...

> "It doesn’t mean they’re not doing anything wrong because they’ve long ago abandoned the chronological news feed in favor of an algorithmically sorted news feed focused on engagement. This is decidedly not neutral. Abuse of these engagement algorithms are what allowed spammers to leverage the viral nature of misinformation to enrich themselves. It’s also what gave credibility and reach to the Russian political interference. If Facebook wants to act as a neutral platform for speech, then they should be neutral. If they are elevating certain content algorithmically then they are acting as a publisher. This weakens their argument about being a neutral platform and makes them more responsible for what they choose to elevate on Facebook."

There's probably reasonable policy here - but it's not trivial.

[0]: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/16/mark-zuckerberg-and-f...

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#59
post #21

It's not so much that the key people at the top of Facebook "see no evil," but that they truly, sincerely, earnestly believe there is no evil to be seen, or if there is any evil, they truly, sincerely, earnestly believe they can subdue it with great engineering and great management. They fail to see what every outsider, and many insiders, clearly see. Paraphrasing Upton Sinclair: It is difficult to get people to see…

That sounds like another way of saying "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

Ignoring so many people asking them to examine their bias and human fallibility is definitely a form of stupidity. That is unless they believe the people are more flawed than they are and that they are better placed to judge what the people need. In that case, it becomes more malice than stupidity.

Re: Facebook's “see no evil” strategy

#60
post #53
post #46

What exactly is the evil that Facebook is supposedly trying to not see? And how would making reach data available make it easier for Facebook to see evil? Or if Facebook is trying to hide the evil, what evil is it they are trying to hide? What will the reach data reveal that is so evil? And if the evil is manifest without reach data, why does it matter?

> What exactly is the evil that Facebook is supposedly trying to not see? I see that you are new here, this is not Reddit. You should read the linked article before posting, there you can find the answer to this question and others. Be informed, be polite.

I did read the article, twice. I can't figure it out. That is why I asked.

How is your response polite?

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