Why Build Toys • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Build Toys

#51

Post by bigiain » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #37

samstave wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996 I have had several existential crisis wondering *"what the fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing."* --- This happened to me at FB, SF, Lucas, Brocade... I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce nothing of intrinsic value" I find it ironic that NFTs are now the version of creating something of…

I'm a little younger than you, so I want to ask this: If it were up to you, alone or with a team you're in charge of, do you think you could come up with a piece of software which would be less ephemeral and more lasting, perhaps being able to work unadministered or requiring minimum administration for a while, and be usable AND useful for years without any major changes? What would it look like, and what would its p…

> do you think you could come up with a piece of software which would be less ephemeral and more lasting

Take a look at the sort of old software people write emulators for.

There's an active scene that resurrects 70/80s video games - Space Invaders/Galaga/Defender et al have way way longer useful life than most of the software written in the subsequent ~40 years.

IBM maintain a VAX/VMS emulator, and there are various ports if it (including OpenVMS and an x86 version). This is mostly (I think?) used for "legacy apps" particularly finacuial/governemnt/adacemic/military software written in Cobol, Fortran, or Ada.

Looking at those sorts of software would be interesting in terms of knowing what sort of 40+ year old software people still care about...

Re: Why Build Toys

#52

Post by samstave » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 1:22 AM UTC

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #48

samstave wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I LOVE this challenging thought experiment. (I was on "commenting too fast" restrictions (Shakes fist @Dang)... --- With that said - I love this question! --- The premise, as interpreted: **"A self-teaching application which can adjust behavior and performance with minimal input"** --- Proposal A: [NMAP/PRISM/ETC for AI/ML systems] ((I'd be sure Palantir has this covered...)) This one will be long winded and off-the-…

What would the hardware for this look like. Is there anything more to it than two Ethernet ports, storage, RAM, and CPU? Anything beyond putting together existing components? Thank you for responding, I am intrigued by your ideas.

Heh, its funny that you boiled it down as such:

Network, storage, memory and compute (GPU is included in compute). Aside from any other mortar you may need which can be available as a service, that is the premise of all that we do with machines.

Honestly, its a straightforward concept - and products exist in the enterprise for just this: MDM (Mobile Device Management) -- you can deploy and manage (and monitor and spy on) any provisioned device through your ITMS...

There should be a product for homes that provides all that you said - with archive, backup, MDM, blogs, calendar, todo, etc...

I pitched this years ago "Facebook in a box for the home"

I pitched it to YC, to others from Goog and FB...

I was told "nobody will want that"

Re: Why Build Toys

#53

Post by esperent » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

svilen_dobrev wrote: post #7

IMO making toys is the hardest thing of all designs... too long-shot/perspective to cover.. like while some adult may be able to tell what he likes/dislikes about a thing, it not so for kids.. esp. in long run. it's a blessing that some (physical or not at all) toys still exist without being monetized.. although the trends with everything-being-appz might kill that some day maybe OT, but some 10+y ago, i passed throu…

> the culture/society is somehow representable by what toys it makes for it's kids.

Can you give some examples?

I've spent the last 7 years doing a lot of travelling around Asia, India, and Europe. I've observed quite the opposite, so I'm curious to know what you've seen that I've missed.

Currently I live in Vietnam and I polled a couple of Vietnamese people who are sitting with me about what their children play with (it turned into a really interesting breakfast conversation, so thanks!).

Their answers:

Boys play with cars, water guns, toy soldiers, and such. Girls play with dolls, toy kitchens, toy houses. Both play with modeling clay, coloring pens etc. (or Lego if the parents are progressive). Boys role play as soldiers, girls as princesses. Both role play as things like shopkeepers. This also includes data from people's childhoods 30 year's ago so I don't think it's a sign of Westernization. The main difference over the past 30 years is more plastic (of course) and that many people are much richer now. The main difference I've seen is that electric bikes for older children/teens are very popular here (I think bikes are a tool rather than a toy though).

This seems very similar to what children in Europe play with, and ties in with my observations in other countries. But of course, even a lifetime of travel would only give me insight into a fraction of cultures so more info is welcome.

The big exception is in remote areas in the countryside where people are very poor and can't afford many toys.

Re: Why Build Toys

#54

Post by IggleSniggle » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #43

jonny_eh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appe…

That's about Ramses II though, and a lot of his statues are still standing. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Luxor_Temple_-_panor...

I can’t tell if you’re joking, half-joking, or serious, but in any case, bravo for this response.

On the other hand, some ephemera does stand the test of time pretty well, whether by being ensconced in an environmentally controlled room like a tomb (ie incorporated as part of a long lasting work) or via heavy replication and meme-worthiness, like the Odyssey, the Bible, or the works of Shakespeare.

Re: Why Build Toys

#55

Post by 1-6 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:02 AM UTC

dimatura wrote: post #26

Anki (the robotics toy company, not the flash cards) comes to mind. IIRC they had aspirations to build non-toy tech. It didn't work out, though, as they shut down last year. It's unfortunate - I got one of their vector robots for cheap after they shut down and it's a fun little gadget.

I saw the Anki being demoed during WWDC 2013. At first, I was intrigued but the price turned me off. I couldn't find a justification in getting one especially when Oculuses were competing for my $$$. I generally agree that toys do have their purpose. Those who are involved in AWS DeepRacer competitions can probably attest to that.

Re: Why Build Toys

#56

Post by AussieWog93 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:10 AM UTC

tdumitrescu wrote: post #34

spoonjim wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks how temporary software is, especially Web software. If you don’t pay the hosting bill it’s gone. If you don’t upgrade to 64 but it’s useless. Essentially it’s a plate spinning on a stick and it needs constant attention to survive. Contrast that to a fine piece of furniture which barring fire or flood can just sit abandoned in a warehouse for 300 years and then be even more valuable than it was initially.

I dunno, as someone with a lot of antique furnishings in a 19th-century house, I'd say that there's quite a bit of ongoing maintenance to prevent the march of time and usual wear and tear from grinding everything to dust!

I don't collect antique furniture, but I do cook with and maintain 100-year old cast iron and a very nice German chef's knife.

I think the biggest difference between software maintenance and maintenance of most physical objects is that physical maintenance is calming, tactile and pleasant.

Routine software maintenance, on the other hand, is hacky, frustrating and stressful.

I would much rather sharpen my knife on a whetstone than fix a dependency on a CI server or wrap my head around Apple's latest code signing bullshit.

Re: Why Build Toys

#57

Post by ozfive » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

samstave wrote: post #52

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the hardware for this look like. Is there anything more to it than two Ethernet ports, storage, RAM, and CPU? Anything beyond putting together existing components? Thank you for responding, I am intrigued by your ideas.

Heh, its funny that you boiled it down as such: Network, storage, memory and compute (GPU is included in compute). Aside from any other mortar you may need which can be available as a service, that is the premise of all that we do with machines. Honestly, its a straightforward concept - and products exist in the enterprise for just this: MDM (Mobile Device Management) -- you can deploy and manage (and monitor and spy…

You were told "nobody will want that" by people who wouldn't want it to exist as it flies in the face of those walled gardens. I know plenty of people that want that now for sure, myself included. People are tired of their data being "owned" by these companies and subsequently having it lost or stolen. Something like this would be like mixing bitdefender box and a NAS with HumHub or some other open source social network software maybe?

Re: Why Build Toys

#58

Post by nwatson » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #41

tdumitrescu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, as someone with a lot of antique furnishings in a 19th-century house, I'd say that there's quite a bit of ongoing maintenance to prevent the march of time and usual wear and tear from grinding everything to dust!

I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appe…

The poem reminds me of the Coen Brothers movie "Ballad of Buster Scruggs", released on Netflix a few years ago, which presents four (or five) vignettes.

In one of these Harry Melling plays a handicapped performer of poems in the "wild west", and the segment starts with him reciting this poem. Liam Neeson plays his manager. The segment is one of the most Darwinian, cold things I've ever seen. The whole movie is great, but this vignette especially.

EDIT: the beginning of the segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdQKUvv3bew

Re: Why Build Toys

#59

Post by hyperpallium2 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

rpastuszak wrote: post #2

I'm not sure about you, but the more experienced I am, as a developer or "builder", the smaller things I end up making. For instance, I launched a bunch of games that are, frankly, more fun to watch, than to play (e.g. an All-hands meeting simulator: https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands ) or little tools this one https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ (it's stupid, completely replaceable, but somewhat adorable). I come…

Conjecture: the fundamental distinction between software engineering and other engineering disciplines is the lack of DEs.

Though calculus plays a role in information theory (and of course in some application domains such as computational fluid dynamics and machine learning).

Software engineering is more like a trade or craft, except that it's new and still evolving.

Re: Why Build Toys

#60

Post by pjerem » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:43 AM UTC

armchairhacker wrote: post #31

samstave wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996 I have had several existential crisis wondering *"what the fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing."* --- This happened to me at FB, SF, Lucas, Brocade... I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce nothing of intrinsic value" I find it ironic that NFTs are now the version of creating something of…

> we produce nothing of intrinsic value Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or a banker or a teacher etc. Even the guys who build the Empire State building - there were probably hundreds of them, each only building a small part - and someday that will get lost in time also. “Intrinsic value” is whatever you define it to be. I guess if you’re working for some ad-sales-management company making softwa…

> we produce nothing of intrinsic value Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or a banker or a teacher etc.

Absolutely not. None of these professionals are ever working on superfluous projects of unknown worth to the society. In fact, their worth to the society is immediate and totally tangible: you couldn’t eat without the farmer’s work, you wouldn’t have a house without the banker, and you would be dumb without the teacher.

However for most software projects, you would have a hard time to define their positive contribution to the society. Not saying useful and positive software doesn’t exists : there are plenty of those. But they are a visible minority in a sea of unknown, buggy, driven by bankable MVPs rather than useful and well crafted user centered software.