European Citizen's Initiative for UBI • Hacker News Board

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#51

Post by rad_gruchalski » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

nr2x wrote: post #30

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

Many people have more than a billion, and I can't really think of any sort of luxury you get with 10 billion you can't easily have with 1B. Above the 1B mark you are solely holding wealth to further manipulation of macro-level power structures to your advantage. UBI is a means to forcibly redistribute anything above a certain "unlimited life of luxury" threshold to keep it below oligarchy. Also, I want fun, cool, tec…

> Many people have more than a billion

Yes, exactly 2755. I’m having two and a half men flashbacks.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#52

Post by systemvoltage » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I am worried about how cost of living would explode to untenable levels. Low skilled labor prices would get out of control I am guessing since it is a basic supply/demand issue - when you put a floor with UBI, minimum wage to take up manual labor jobs would rise dramatically. It is actually incredible how much of our society depands on manual labor. Most people on HN are out of touch with this reality. The world runs on physically moving, stacking, filling, driving, cleaning, joining and constructing things. UBI I can see can diminishing the ability for the same laborers to obtain affordable food, housing, and transportation.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#53

Post by Svip » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

The largest problem for UBI - from a state and political standpoint - is that you are actually taking away power from the civil service and politicians, because they would no longer have the power over people's benefits. UBI reduces the amount of benefits you could afterwards give to specific political groups you favour.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#54

Post by anoncake » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #7

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lazy answer if so, and a disappointing take on organizing society if that’s considered acceptable.

Maybe because "organizing society" according to some grand central plan isn't actually a very effective strategy.

Ok, let's not use waterfall then.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#55

Post by lu4p » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #12

slg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason why the UBI needs to be a flat universal rate rather than adjusted based off local economic factors.

How would that work in practice? Wouldn't people just move to the higher UBI areas?

Although you can move freely to any country, to recieve benefits in a most countries you need to have had a job for 3 months before you can claim any benefits.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#56

Post by anoncake » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #37

mypastself wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The initiative is apparently to introduce “basic incomes”, plural, which is presumably determined based on local economic circumstances. Not sure how that reduces “regional disparities” and achieves “territorial cohesion”, though.

All that will happen is people will pretend to live in rich expensive countries and actually live in cheaper countries. I already see this all the time with benefits.

Source, please?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#57

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

twen_ty wrote: post #36

yeslibertarian wrote: post #2

[flagged]

So what's your solution? I'm not holding my breath...

Given the username, I'm guessing their solution is "Don't do UBI".

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#58

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #35

wyager wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are less destructive than radically restructuring the entire economy, which most UBI advocates seem to want to do. Median household income in the US is significantly higher than any EU country except Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I think most Americans who complain incessantly about how "third world" America is view Europe through rose-colored glasses. Any third-world aspects of the US (which do exist) a…

The real idea behind the UBI is to "radically restructure" the economy in a freedom-promoting direction, closer to something like the US today than current policy in the EU.

How much economic and employment freedom does one have when health care is tied to the current employer?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#59

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

[deleted]

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#60

Post by rorykoehler » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #56

rorykoehler wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that will happen is people will pretend to live in rich expensive countries and actually live in cheaper countries. I already see this all the time with benefits.

Source, please?

In my peer group. Incentives drive behaviour