Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#51

Post by chrismcb » Sat, Jul 03, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

richk449 wrote: post #48

gfodor wrote: post #4

I don't understand how ostensibly smart people keep making the same error, time and time again. First, they see the other tribe's worst members making false claims, engaging in fearmongering, or worse. Then they consider the direct opposite position. In this case, it's "vaccines are dangerous" vs "vaccines are completely safe." Then, they cherry pick analytical frames which validate the latter position. And of course…

That’s a great analysis, but I think there is one more aspect which needs to be considered. The decision should not be purely individual, since there is a tragedy of the commons aspect. To any individual, the risks of Covid are relatively low, and the long term risks of the vaccine are hard to know, so personally choosing not to get the vaccine seems reasonable. Yet if every individual makes that same calculation, we…

But the risks to everyone won't go up. Before anyone gets the vaccine, the risks of covid are relatively low. That risk won't go up. It may not go down, but it won't go up.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#52

Post by richk449 » Sat, Jul 03, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

chrismcb wrote: post #51

richk449 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a great analysis, but I think there is one more aspect which needs to be considered. The decision should not be purely individual, since there is a tragedy of the commons aspect. To any individual, the risks of Covid are relatively low, and the long term risks of the vaccine are hard to know, so personally choosing not to get the vaccine seems reasonable. Yet if every individual makes that same calculation, we…

But the risks to everyone won't go up. Before anyone gets the vaccine, the risks of covid are relatively low. That risk won't go up. It may not go down, but it won't go up.

Sure, as long as we continue to keep restaurants and bars closed and wear masks and social distance, the risk will remain low. How long is it realistic to keep doing that?

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#53

Post by andag » Sat, Jul 03, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #4

I don't understand how ostensibly smart people keep making the same error, time and time again. First, they see the other tribe's worst members making false claims, engaging in fearmongering, or worse. Then they consider the direct opposite position. In this case, it's "vaccines are dangerous" vs "vaccines are completely safe." Then, they cherry pick analytical frames which validate the latter position. And of course…

Your reasoning is flawed..

It's not a choice of "take vaccine, have risk" or "don't take vaccine and not have risk."

It's take vaccine - with an unknown long term risk, or risk covid where there are also strong signs of long term side effects. There has been research showing infertility effects, there is research showing permanent brain alternations in even some mild cases. And yes, nothing of this is fully proven yet, and we don't know how impactful it is, but the signals are there.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#54

Post by Isinlor » Sat, Jul 03, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #50

th0ma5 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said you're looking for papers? I mean I mentioned that subreddit is the source of What I'm talking about, What is this paper that you speak of?

I am asking for links to published (not preprint) papers supporting what you said. I’m open to it.

Peer-review doesn't mean much. You will have best luck following centralized authorities.

Here is finding from one study that was peer-reviewed and got published in a journal "Vaccines" (impact factor: 4.4):

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm

> For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. Conclusions: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink their vaccination policy.

The study is now retracted, but for one such outrageously wrong study there are probably 10 more that do not receive so much scrutiny.

There is nothing that can be done if you do not trust authorities, besides spending time on getting into the weeds.

But if you trust authorities, then according to American CDC:

> CDC recommends everyone 12 years and older should get a COVID-19 vaccination to help protect against COVID-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommend...

And according to WHO:

> Children and adolescents tend to have milder disease compared to adults, so unless they are part of a group at higher risk of severe COVID-19, it is less urgent to vaccinate them than older people, those with chronic health conditions and health workers.

> More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19.

> WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy.

> It's important for children to continue to have the recommended childhood vaccines.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#55

Post by TheBobinator » Sat, Jul 03, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

Was going to go back and edit my (now flagged) post in this thread since after seeing a few videos of the MSM my subcutical vitriol didn't sit well after a thought hit me. Figure'd I'd post this. Feel free to flag it too, these opinions are my own and not that of HN, I own them.

So the issue with MSM reporting and this specific article is the habitation of publishing without applying basic principles of news literacy first. Editorials and Opinion pieces are all too often confused with stories of fact, and Questions about interests, data, and how conclusions are all often buried or require way too much time to discover and determine or we are asked to take it at face value. I won't say what puppies the MSM have killed but I will say in the last couple of years, they've killed a few publicly; the overton bubble has begun boiling and the Frog is wondering which pot is actually safe at this point. In this article I have to click on 6 or so links and read seperate articles to find out what was proposed here is an opinion piece, then do google searching. I shouldn't have to proove out the authors statement myself.

And that has become a bad habit for many people, and it's infested the education system. The net impact of that is to destroy the capacity of a country to utilize reputation and sound reporting and lets be really honest here, there are institutions that even in this pandemic and well before it have prooven trustworthy.

I would reccomend anyone reading this that REALLY doesn't like what I'm saying to assume I'm full of it but do yourself a favor. Take a news literacy course.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#56

Post by gfodor » Sat, Jul 03, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

Isinlor wrote: post #54

gfodor wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asking for links to published (not preprint) papers supporting what you said. I’m open to it.

Peer-review doesn't mean much. You will have best luck following centralized authorities. Here is finding from one study that was peer-reviewed and got published in a journal "Vaccines" (impact factor: 4.4): https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm > For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. Conclusions: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink t…

I'm referring to peer-reviewed studies in regards to the risk of long COVID in minors.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#57

Post by hypertele-Xii » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

th0ma5 wrote: post #39

adventured wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that your immune system will overreact to the virus It's not a fact, first of all. Second, the vast majority do not suffer that reaction or anything remotely close to it. For the majority Covid is equivalent to getting a mild cold, or less. Now that's actually a fact, derived from the rather enormous trove of data we have on outcomes at this point.

Cytokine storm is one of the major contributors to death from the disease. From my reading then is pretty much the definition of your immune system overreacting and starting to destroy your body. The immune system generally walks a line between being absolutely worthless and killing you. Edit: Oh I see my use of the word will is leading you astray. "Will" as in that your immune system will be overreacting if you are…

> The immune system generally walks a line between being absolutely worthless and killing you.

And that's your strong belief which steers you towards getting vaccinated.

See, in my mind, my immune system is highly effective. Not only did it protect me through all the big "scary" diseases the media went on and on about like swine flu, avian flu, etc., but it has also flawlessly protected every single one of my ancestors since billions of years ago.

The only thing I've been hospitalized for was salmonella. Fun times (not).